Left and Right: Put Up Or Shut Up

I’m joining with friends and fellow bloggers Micah Sifry, Michael J. Totten, and
Roger L. Simon, among others in endorsing and supporting Spirit of America.
This is a people-people project just put together by renown blogger the Armed Liberal (who has now revealed himself to be Marc Danziger). I challenge everyone who clicks on this blog to take a moment and make a contribution to this project which will directly aid the Iraqi people. This effort crosses all ideological lines. Nobody has a valid excuse for abstaining. If you supported the war, here’s your chance to be more than an armchair general and it’s time to stop yammering about building democracy and start doing something about it.

If you opposed the war, as I did, then here’s a chance to do more than walk around in a circle with a placard in hand. Now you can offer some concrete solidarity to the Iraqi people. So, once again, contribute now to Spirit of America.

Also check out Jeff Jarvis for the most detailed and passionate description of the project. Whether you are on the Right or the Left… time to put up or shut up.

Comments

[steve]

teve, Au Contraire, I think you are extremely PC and given your anti-(fill in the blank) I have to agree with the second part of your statement.

--i'd say i'm not that Pariotically Correct, but if you think so roper, thanks for the compliment. not sure rummy would agreee, but..

[steve]

And I purposefully put that word in quotes. I have no faith in the US Marines to bring objective media to Iraq. I have the same no faith in the wankers at newsstandards.

--really? i think the wark of darhr jamail has been outstanding. he's a gringo, but the iraqis he works with are learning more about independent journalism from his work than anything iraqis working with the marines that spirit of america supports.
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roger writes:
Okay, Steve, I'd put money on yes and I'm the guy himself. Go figure. I've always supported labor rights and still do

--i asked if you would promote that link, like you promoted the spirit of america link? possibly you support labor rights, Bremer doesn't. Arresting labor activists in Iraq is not consistent with that. Nor does Chalabi or his successor Allawi.
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Just as I support gay marriage and so-called left social causes, if the term left means anytning anymore, which I doubt.

--I know CATO activists and Republicans who suport gay marriage, it's hardly a benchmark of left orientation. support for canadian style universal health care on the other hand is. that's something that a clear division between EPI and CATO is a standard for establishing what is left and not.
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NOW GET THIS AND GET THIS CLEAR: The reason I supported the War in Iraq is to me that is the progressive side. I know that it may be a tad confusing to you, but I'm for taking out fascist dictators when it's reasonably possible. Call it Hitler flashback.

--so you would support military intervention in Saudi Arabia? My sense is it's possible to overthrow them, they're pretty weak. Pakistan? They're pretty weak, except for the nukes that we sell to them and they sell to our official enemies. I really don't think that Saddam's human rights violations had anything to do with the invasion of Iraq.
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And you know what -- history may well prove me right. It's been scarcely more than a year and Iraq doesn't look nearly so bad as the naysayers want us to believe.

--really? is it anything like Wolfie, Cheney, or Perle were telling us it would be like? Even after the revelations of systematic roundups of innocent Iraqis by the Americans, looting of Iraqis' wealth, Abu Ghraib and virtually every other prison that used torture on people who were in jail who knows what, the inability to make even a little progress in stabilizing the country...and you believe things are getting better and better. I respectfully disagree about the progressive side of this illegal and unecessary intervention.

[Marc Cooper]

Steve.. I dont think Roger Simon gets up in the morning and gives a flying fuck if his "orientation" is Left or not! Who does, except you? The more you yammer and hammer on in the name of this so-called "left", the more embarrassing it is for anyone else to identify as such. In passing, let me also say that I consider your beloved Dahr Jamail to be nothing but a rank, amateur propagandist who can barely contain his admiration for the black-shirted murdering Muj.. he as much as gets a public hard-on when he "writes" about their glorious murdering of anyone in Iraq who might favor even the semblance of democratic process. He's another embarrassment. If his standards are what "left journalism" aspires to, then I'll settle for the big bad corporate media anyday of the week. It might also shock you to learn that one of your heroes, Doug Henwood, is a good friend of mine. Hope that doesn't mar your rigid manichean view of the world nor throw your left "orientation" off kilter.

[steve]

teve.. I dont think Roger Simon gets up in the morning and gives a flying fuck if his "orientation" is Left or not! Who does, except you? The more you yammer and hammer on in the name of this so-called "left", the more embarrassing it is for anyone else to identify as such

--he stated he didn't know if the term 'left' meant much anymore and he attributed his views on gay marriage as evidence of openess to the left. i don't think it is evidence of that at all. and i explained why, without swearing at him, calling him names, etc.
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et me also say that I consider your beloved Dahr Jamail to be nothing but a rank, amateur propagandist who can barely contain his admiration for the black-shirted murdering Muj.. he as much as gets a public hard-on when he "writes" about their glorious murdering of anyone in Iraq who might favor even the semblance of democratic process.

--that's a thorough distortion of what he's written. i would note that you must be angry about the article in the Washington Post on Muq's support in Sadr city. I guess even the Wash Post got tired of the "Sistani good--Muq evil' view. What Jamail has written is pretty consistent with what i've read in juan cole's analysis of muq and sistani.
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It might also shock you to learn that one of your heroes, Doug Henwood, is a good friend of mine. Hope that doesn't mar your rigid manichean view of the world nor throw your left "orientation" off kilter.

--it doesn't surprise me at all since i'm on his list and also consider myself to have a good rapport with him, though mostly over the internet, save a nice lunch in MPLS a year ago. i mention him because i find it interesting that i take many of the same positions that he takes on given issues that have arisen on this discussion list (including the spirit of america business) and yet you consider me to be way beyond the pale. and if you think my sarcasm is unpalatable, swing over to Doug's list and see his level of sarcasm when he's in the mood. Doug is not inclined to want to ban people for providing a Chomskian perspective on his discussion list though.

[Bonnie Spolin]

Marc......

I agree with Micheal J. Totten:

"Time to get Steve's billing address."

Steve.....
Why don't you start your own Blog....think of it....you could ramble on endlessly and live in your own personal world of little trolls. You could argue with yourself all day long, quote yourself and cite your own words as an authority.

I have a perfect title,

TROLLING ALONG WITH STEVE

Sounds catchy don't u think?

[steve]

TROLLING ALONG WITH STEVE

--actually i thought my response was pretty reasonable, no swearing, name calling, questioning of one's patriotism. i thought it was reasonable also to suggest that if roger really supported labor rights he would put a link on his weblog to labor groups efforts to fight for labor rights in Iraq. my response to marc was similarly reasonable. bonnie thinks i should be banned for that?

[Marc Cooper]

Dont make urself a martyr. I couldnt be bothered to "ban" you. Find something else to bitch about.. like US imperialism.

[Susan Wilson]

Hey Bonnie...

I like it -- catchy tune -- "Trolling along with Steve"...who are the sidemen?...who is on bass and keyboard? -- large smiles.

[steve]

Dont make urself a martyr. I couldnt be bothered to "ban" you. Find something else to bitch about.. like US imperialism.

--bitch? who's bitching? i'm all for labor rights and imposed privatization by military force, ya won't catch me criticising Roger again!

[Susan Wilson]

Steve I have been reading you for a few weeks and am a first time poster today, on this blog.

I ditto Coopers last answer to you, for my reason below -- and find you interesting in your "stuck in the cement" views on almost all issues.

Clearly meaning you long ago gave up whatever progessive viewpoints/reasoning you might have had, and it is apparent from your postings you had them -- and are now constantly rotating rhetoric similar to any "old time religion" -- "it was good then, it is good now" -- "I closed my mind back then, and that's it folks!"........"now and forever"......"said Steve"...

I in fact went from an Anarchist to a Dem and back to an Anarchist these days --

I say to you, and forgive my not knowing and saying this to you...get in touch with the times Steve as you seem bright, very bright, just stuck, very stuck with the past and have not assimilated the current times/changes.

[steve]

get in touch with the times Steve as you seem bright, very bright, just stuck, very stuck with the past and have not assimilated the current times/changes.

--sound good rhetorically, any examples? i'd really be curious which ideas are too 'stuck in the past'. ya mean something new is going on and the marines will defend labor rights in Iraq? I guess I should open my mind up some more after all!

[Susan Wilson]

Ahhhh Geez Steve!...

I was in my own way trying to give you, an Aerial View, of your view points. Many of which I agree with - was not even trying to get specific today about the Marines or Iraq with you -- which I happen to agree with you about in some measure --

---not in any fashion trying to deal with you on specific points today -- rather in my own simplistic way, albeit it appears I failed, I was trying to say to you there is Gray, not only Black and White on all issues, and many times you seem to be the essence of what is ill with our Country in these times -- 'polarization, at its peak'...

None the less I do enjoy your thoughts,feel you make great contributions to this blog, and hope to have good conversations with you in the future, where you will then know my positions.

It is Friday, so have a great weekend and a great weekend to all else who may be reading this message...see ya next week.......

[steve]

you too, any luck the sun will be out long enough to get to go down the windy slide and play in the sand. that's first and foremost on my son's mind these days.

[Bonnie Spolin]

Steve.....

Don't want you banned....was just poking a little fun at you.

Here in L.A. the sun is shinning and the sand is perfect!

[Bonnie Spolin]

Okay Sue......

On Bass and Keyboards, Homefry Niles!

[steve]

Don't want you banned....was just poking a little fun at you.

--glad to hear it, everytime totten struggles with my arguments, he invariably calls for my being banned when it gets to be too much. odd since he is so fond of claiming that the left engages in banning behavior.
Weather, well i'm in MPLS, we're having weekends of rain lately. good for fishing, which we have lots of here of course. in between i get to take my son for a bicycle ride to the parks and to the lake to look for duckies.

[Bonnie Spolin]

Steve......

Although I am a (God Forbid) Republican, I am enjoying this blog and you and all the people contributing to it......I have an open mind and like to know every side of every issue. There are many things
I do not agree with on this site, by the same token, there
are many issues and ideas of the Republicans I do not
agree. Think about keeping an open mind yourself.....you are very smart......maybe you could bend a little in your views.....what do you think?

Did you get to the beach?

[steve]

not sure about bending, but i think i'm a whole lot more flexible than marc gives someone like myself credit for. didn't get to the beach, but that's cause we went to the kids museum and played with blocks, logs, and watched the train cartoon (or the hoohoo cartoon as my son calls it). it's a beautiful day here in mpls am happy to report, once again the reports of rain are like those of Mark Twain's death it seems.
oh, and we went to a spanish childrens' book reading. neither one of us understood much, but the story about the frog seemed like good fun and when i was asked in spanish if my son can fly, i could say 'no puede volar!". i'll stick to teaching him chinese i think.

[Michael J. Totten]

Steve,

I'm not calling for you to be banned. Rather I'm calling you out on your trollishness.

This is Marc's blog. He sets the rules. I am not going to tell him what to do on his own Web site.

[steve]

I'm not calling for you to be banned. Rather I'm calling you out on your trollishness.

-- it's hard to imagine the point of your asking me to stop 'trolling' is not to get me banned. you ask for serious replies, you receive them, and then, instead of replying in kind, you go on about me 'trolling'. if i'm mistaken about your intentions, good on ya.

[yfb]

> It might also shock you to learn that one of your heroes, Doug Henwood, is a good friend of mine.

I was under the impression that Steve mentions Doug Henwood precisely *because* he's a friend of yours, a friend who agrees with Steve on many of the issues for which you excoriate him. Clearly, "is friends with" is not the same as "has the same views as", certainly not in your case. Your rhetoric seems to be more heavily influenced by whether you're friends with your correspondent than whether you agree with them. I had dinner with a friend of yours last night, and we talked about some of our disagreements with you (and with each other). We also both said that we disagreed with your tactics more than your positions. Your friends tolerate some rather atrocious behavior; I guess that's part of being friends.