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Friday, August 27, 2004

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» WORST. SLOGAN. EVER. from MaxSpeak, You Listen!
MaxSpeak hereby presents the Bonehead of the Year award to The Nation and Naomi Klein for titling an essay "Bring Najaf to New York." The essay itself is not terrible. It's an over-the-top anti-war rant that is soft on indigenous... [Read More]

» WORST. SLOGAN. EVER. from MaxSpeak, You Listen!
MaxSpeak hereby presents the Ted Rall Memorial Bonehead of the Year award to The Nation and Naomi Klein for titling an essay "Bring Najaf to New York." The essay itself is not terrible. It's an over-the-top anti-war rant that is... [Read More]

» Najaf to New York? Better: New York to Najaf. from Mossback's Lunch
Lefty columnist Marc Cooper is dismayed by the Naomi Klein piece romaticizing Al Sadr in The Nation: Sadness. More sadness than anger is what overcame me when I read the latest Nation magazine column by Naomi Klein. I値l grant it has a catchy title... [Read More]

» Hitchens Eviscerates Klein from Michael J. Totten
My God I hope I never get on the wrong side of Christopher Hitchens in print. Yesterday he brutally eviscerated Naomi Klein's latest piece in The Nation:Another small but interesting development has occurred among my former comrades at The Nation... [Read More]

» Hitchens Eviscerates Klein from Michael J. Totten
My God I hope I never get on the wrong side of Christopher Hitchens in print. Yesterday he brutally eviscerated Naomi Klein's latest piece in The Nation:Another small but interesting development has occurred among my former comrades at The Nation... [Read More]

» Bitch from Filisteu
Qualquer dia desses eu vou adicionar uma coluna ali no lado com o cabeçalho "Filhos da Puta". Não posso me esquecer de colocar a Naomi Klein entre eles.... [Read More]

» 'Discrediting the resistance'? from Harry's Place
Naomi Klein and Democracy Now's Jeremy Scahill have a piece in the Guardian on the kidnapping of the Italian anti-war activists Simona Torretta and Simona... [Read More]

» 'Discrediting the resistance'? from Harry's Place
Naomi Klein and Democracy Now's Jeremy Scahill have a piece in the Guardian on the kidnapping of the Italian anti-war activists Simona Torretta and Simona... [Read More]

Comments

james

Get with the times Cooper...

www.bigleftoutside.com

Tom Grey

Bravo, Marc. You're absolutely right:
"Nothing – not even the U.S. Army—more threatens the future of a democratic, pluralistic and (dare we wish, secular) Iraq than the political ascendancy of Islamic fascists like Al Sadr."

It struck in reading the comments that you, and many Leftists, fail to see that secularism comes AFTER a market oriented economy has both created lots of wealth AND has made "the customer, king". The kingship feelings of buyers, and their reduced acceptance of religious restrictions, is not well understood, nor talked about. Iraq will NOT be secular as long as they stay poor.


Some commenters are pretty irresponsible to call for the US to cut out before the Iraqi Police are able to handle most crimes, themselves. And it's terrible to want the US out of there before the Iraqis have elections -- which would allow the terrorists with the most guns and ruthlessness to dominate.

Wagner James Au

We should be very clear about the kind of people Naomi Klein is being so sentimental about:

"One of Moqtada’s aides, Hazem al-Araji, delivered the sermon... in front of the crowd of worshippers outside the shrine, Araji let loose an incendiary and conspiracy-laced analysis of the violence in Iraq. The attacks came from four sources, he declared, none of them Iraqi or Muslim: it was the Jews, the Americans, the British, and the Wahhabi. The Jews-- who had been warned to stay away from the World Trade Center on September 11th, so that not one Jew died--'want Iraqis to die.'"

For Sadr to succeed in Iraq would not just mean an Iranian-style theocracy. It would in all likelihood mean leaving the small community of Iraqi Jews to the same fate as Nick Berg. But hating the American Army and George W. Bush is far more important to Klein, so remanding their fate to yet one more Arabic *kristalnacht* is a small price to pay.

Tom Grey

See Norm's note on Humanizing Hitler, its necessity for understanding, and its danger in forgiveness.

His point is valid here, too.
"Understanding", in PC talk, does mean forgiveness.
If anybody is human, tolerance demands understanding, demands forgiveness.
Therefore, to avoid forgiveness, demonization is required, and ONLY demonization is allowed.

This explains the "Bush = Hitler" demonization, despite Bush's huge increase in gov't spending on everything.

Josh Legere

Mr. Cooper was right on the money! So was Todd Gitlin's recent piece in The Nation. Todd took Naomi to task on Democracy Now a few days ago. She and Pacifica for that matter are living in an insane world. Sadr is not a "misquided anti-imperialist." She is ruining The Nation. It doesn't need another Alexander Cockburn!

steve

So was Todd Gitlin's recent piece in The Nation. Todd took Naomi to task on Democracy Now a few days ago.

--really? I thought gitlin did a pretty weak job of defending his position. he misrepresents the effect of the 68 police riot on the election and klein made a very persuasive argument against Gitlin's wish that no one protest. In fact, it turns out that Gitlin's predictions of anarchist catastrophe turned out to be way way off. The biggest march went off very well, nothing like what Gitlin or the police were telling us was going to happen.

steve

It struck in reading the comments that you, and many Leftists, fail to see that secularism comes AFTER a market oriented economy has both created lots of wealth AND has made "the customer, king".

--hmmm...you mean like in China? Odd, I see more religious belief than ever in China with the advent of markets. superstition seems to rise with markets in countries like Russia and much of Eastern Europe...
ah yes, the market is not king enough...but then again, ok, let's see, the US versus Europe. I think, though I might be mistaken, Americans are perhaps slightly or a whole lot more superstitious than Euros? And religion impacts politics in the US a whole lot more. A very powerful theory you have there Tom.

Josh Legere

Tom Grey is obviously is holding onto his New Left delusions about 68. It was the end of American liberalism. Do you not see the correlation between New Left indulgences and the ascendancy of conservatism?

Guess what. Regular working people are not impressed by giant puppets held by people on stilts holding "fuck bush" banners.

The protest may not have been mayhem but it didn't make a damn bit of difference. Bush had a much bigger spike than Kerry and at this point has it pretty much has the election won. Unfortunately the protesters with "bush = Hitler" banners only gave the Republicans more votes. I guess you will not realize this until the day after he wins. Step aside New Left relic.

Josh Legere

My above comments are directed at STEVE not Tom Grey. My mistake and apology to Mr. Grey for the confusion.

Guess what. Regular working people are not impressed by giant puppets held by people on stilts holding "fuck bush" banners.

--you mean the NYC labor activists that were at the protests were holding banners saying 'fuck bush'? I thought they were holding banners about health care, protecting union rights, overtime pay,...I guess we were watching a different march.
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Unfortunately the protesters with "bush = Hitler" banners only gave the Republicans more votes.

--now i know we were watching very different marches. i'm reminded of the predictions of mass 'anarchist' chaos before the march on NYC. ho hum.

steve

By the way Mr. Legere, I'm curious your take on Mr. Grey's bizarre theory about markets and secularism. Your wierd attack on the protests seems like a non-sequitor.

Josh Legere

I do not agree with much of anything on Mr. Grey's blog or his post.

I guess we were watching a different protest. But anyone reading this can go to CSPAN online and check it out.

Are you actually going to pretend that the sectarian nuts and trust fund anarchists were not out in full force? Was the march not organized by ANSWER (a WWP front group) and United for Peace and Justice (a RCP front group)? Did the black block not burn down a puppet or have a “man in black bloc” protest at a party celebrating the life of Johnny Cash? Did the ruckus society not organize a "critical mass" bike protest? Yes labor did have a presence at the protest but you surely know that the "Osama is a misguided anti-imperialist" and the "bush is Hitler, end capitalism, racism, war, and free mumia” crowd were the overwhelming majority.

The protest did nothing except satisfy the righteousness on many on the left.

steve

I guess we were watching a different protest. But anyone reading this can go to CSPAN online and check it out.

--I did watch CSPAN. I saw a pretty middle class group of protestors by and large, probably largely New Yorkers and folks from the tristate area, with help from thousands outside that area surely. I wasn't really impressed until I saw the thousand coffins, I thought that was a well thought out tactic.
----------------------------------
Are you actually going to pretend that the sectarian nuts and trust fund anarchists were not out in full force?

--so? Are you saying they made up the large majority of the protestors? Watch Cspan again, it's pretty clear that that wasn't the case. Even CNN was featuring couples with children at the protest. If they can see them, you should be able to too, no?
------------------------------
Was the march not organized by ANSWER (a WWP front group) and United for Peace and Justice (a RCP front group)?

--no, this wasn't ANSWER's protest and UPJ is noone's front group. I haven't even heard that from the usual left bashers like Gitlin et al. Then again, throw that one by him, next time the NYT needs someone to trash a protest before it happens, he can use that claim.
--------------------------
Did the black block not burn down a puppet or have a “man in black bloc” protest at a party celebrating the life of Johnny Cash?

--i'd put my money on police provacateurs. what was remarkable about that event was how well it was handled as an *oddity* at a well organized peaceful antiwar demo.
--------------------------
es labor did have a presence at the protest but you surely know that the "Osama is a misguided anti-imperialist" and the "bush is Hitler, end capitalism, racism, war, and free mumia” crowd were the overwhelming majority.

--I watched CSPAN pretty carefully, I doubt what you say is based on much more than preconceived notions. On the other hand, my parents, who have never gone to a demo, supported the invasion of Afghanistan, served in the army, middle class suburbanites watched the demo on CSPAN and were impressed by how much the demonstrators looked a lot like them and their neighbors in comfortable western Philly suburbs. And that was how the march was reported in the mainstream media by and large too.

Michael Turner

Josh Legere: "Yes labor did have a presence at the protest but you surely know that the "Osama is a misguided anti-imperialist" and the "bush is Hitler, end capitalism, racism, war, and free mumia” crowd were the overwhelming majority."

I doubt that there are 100,000 people in all of America matching those descriptions. (For "Osama misguided anti-imperialist," can it really exceed the low four figures?) And I really doubt that they all went to New York. And I think 100,000 is what you'd need to talk about a majority of protesters - forget "overwhelming majority."

One of the largest peace demonstrations resulting in mass arrests in my hometown of Berkeley during the Vietnam War was composed much as Steve describes. The media - whether Right or Left - will pick out what's conspicuous, and let's face it: most people aren't very conspicuous, and a thrown rock, or a man on stilts with weird makeup is.

Most of the protestors were probably New Yorkers. Most New Yorkers are Democrats (maybe 5/6ths.) New York has maybe 6 million people. So that's 5 million Democrats (and more leftward-leaning types) to choose from. So for 200,000 people to be "overwhelmingly" in the majority as described above, you've got to assume that maybe one out of every 30 New Yorkers is inclined to believe that Osama bin Laden really isn't so bad (hm, after he attacked their city?) and that Bush is morally equivalent to Hitler, and that this 1-out-of-30 crowd managed to alienate almost anyone else who'd otherwise be inclined to march.

New York's a crazy place, no doubt, but I have trouble seeing it as THAT crazy.

Here is the structure the argument coming from people like Klein, as I understand it:

1. US troops are after al Sadr's guys
2. al Sadr's guys are hiding in the Imam Ali Shrine
3. this shrine is hugely important to Shiite Islam
---
thus: the US should be blamed for any harm or disrespect the shrine may face

When clarified, isn't this a pretty unconvincing argument? Blaming US troops because the Sadrists are hiding in the important shrine is like blaming the Russian authorities (*morally*, not just in terms of failing to provide better security) for Breslan.

Actually, that's not quite right. If the shrine is so important to Shiites, then al Sadr’s actions are comparable to putting *his own civilians* in harm’s way. On the Shiites terms, if this shrine is really so important, then Sadr's act of placing his men inside is morally analogous to Saddam’s old practice of placing military targets next to children's hospitals. If human shields are killed, the moral blame goes to the one who hides behind them.

steve

thus: the US should be blamed for any harm or disrespect the shrine may face

--you left out one critical fact of, well some might say monumental importance: Iraq is occupied by the US, whose leader thought invading Iraq would help his reelection chances.
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Blaming US troops because the Sadrists are hiding in the important shrine is like blaming the Russian authorities (*morally*, not just in terms of failing to provide better security) for Breslan.

--not a few Russians are saying that, in addition to the utterly unnecessary level of warfare its conducting against Chechnyans in Chechnya. But, hey, why negotiate with evildoers, eh?
----------------------
the shrine is so important to Shiites, then al Sadr’s actions are comparable to putting *his own civilians* in harm’s way. On the Shiites terms, if this shrine is really so important,

--yada yada. I thought you prowar folk thought Shiites were the good guys and the sunnis were the evildoers?

Josh Legere

ANSWER and the WWP

read this by David Corn
http://www.laweekly.com/ink/02/50/news-corn.php

They are indeed front groups for relexive Anti-American sectarians. I am against this war. I also against those that believe that Bush is more dangerous than Jihadists. Logic is out the door with Sectarian groups and anarchists. The NY protests were a convergence of all the nuts and many decent folks as well. The decent folks were a minority to the "bush is hitler" crowd. Most New Yorkers left the city.

For info on ANSWER, WWP, UFPJ
read Corn and Cooper
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20021223&s=exchange

Katha Pollit
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030210&s=pollitt

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=6024

steve

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/02/50/news-corn.php

--please, stick to your original claim that UPJ was a front organization, that is what I disagreed with.
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The NY protests were a convergence of all the nuts and many decent folks as well. The decent folks were a minority to the "bush is hitler" crowd. Most New Yorkers left the city.

--you need to read your NYTimes more carefully. Then you might want to read the Boston Globe, which was very critical of the NY police overreaction to the NYC protests. Now, if the Boston Globe can see this, why is it so hard for an opponent of the war to see it? And might I suggest you reread Pollit, she seems to be making the point in support of my view of UPFJ.
As for ANSWER, heck, they're not that much different from people like Cooper or Totten really, they don't like anarchists popping up and acting unpredictably, 'irresponsibly', etc. Actually you and ANSWER would probably see eye to eye on the question of bizarre behavior at protests.
As for Front Page, lol...

dc

I'm surprised no-one seems to have noticed that Klein grossly misrepresents Major Glenn Butler's views. Butler says (http://www.iht.com/articles/535312.html, emphasis added):

"The forces we’re fighting *around* *Iraq* are a conglomeration of *renegade* *Shiites*, former Baathists, Iranians, Syrians, terrorists with ties to Ansar al-Islam and Al-Qaeda, petty criminals, destitute citizens looking for excitement or money, and yes, even few frustrated Iraqis who worry about Wal-Mart culture infringing on their neighborhood."

and Klein says:

"The helicopter pilot blithely dismisses his enemies as foreign fighters and ex-Baathists and "a few frustrated Iraqis who worry about Wal-Mart culture infringing on their neighborhood. It's hard to know where to begin. The Mahdi Army that Butler is attacking is made up of Iraqi citizens, not foreigners. They are not Baathists; they were the most oppressed under Saddam's regime and cheered his overthrow."

Butler is clearly describing the nature of resistance around Iraq, not just in Najaf, and if the Mahdi army aren't "renegade Shiites" I don't know who is.

steve

and if the Mahdi army aren't "renegade Shiites" I don't know who is.

--what then are the Marines?

Josh Legere

To compare ANSWER to Cooper or myself it a slander. Are the Black Bloc a benefit to the protests? Really?

How can you not acknowledge the negative consequences of ANSWER, Not in Our Name, and UPJ play in organizing these events?

I have heard ANSWER speakers defend Milosevic (along with Michael Parenti) at a "peace" rally leading up to the Kosovo intervention.

I heard a speaker at an ANSWER march in Long Beach praise Hussein for nationalizing oil for the benefit of the Iraqi people.

It goes on and on. How can you not see the danger of this?

Do you not have the sense to see that regular working people are turned off by black bloc dummies throwing rocks through starbucks windows? Your solidarity for them is pathetic.

They are all self indulgent (probably like yourself). It is about being self righteous. It is NOT about trying to organize a democratic left opposition to the current administration.

My god when will people like yourself notice that you live in La La land compared to the average working person!

It is sad to see the left and fine publications like The Nation turn into wacky voices in the wilderness because of a lack of humility
.

Mr. Walzer sums it up best.
http://www.dissentmagazine.org/menutest/archives/2002/sp02/decent.shtml

steve

To compare ANSWER to Cooper or myself it a slander. Are the Black Bloc a benefit to the protests? Really?

--nope, and you, marc, and ANSWER would agree about that. In fact, I would be with you all on that one too. The rest of your stuff is just a rhetorician's ploy at avoiding the facts about the NYC march. Your fantasy that it was organized by ANSWER or that it was full of hippies, anarchists, flower children, terrorists, terrorist symps, sex maniacs, etc.... warning: sarcasm. Seriously, you overdose on your fears of the 'wierdos' and can't even come to recognise what a tepid liberal newspaper of record like the Boston Globe recognises, the police overreacted and the protesters at the big march were representative of a cross section of New Yorkers and America.
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Tom Grey

Josh, glad you saw it's not me; but you disagree with me, yet no argument? I'm interested in your historical examples of poor, non-religious / secular folk who have created economically successful, human rights respecting democracies?

I claim poor people need religion as a moral anchor, or else they'll be stuck with some Great Leader espousing sacrifice of the individual for the Great Cause. And they'll get lots of individuals sacrificed.

Basing morals in religion is prolly as necessary as "rule of law" for civilization, in practice.

The Left is running out of proletariat to rescue and ally with, preparing for the big day of Revolution!, so I guess Muqty and his thugs will have to do.

Marc Cooper

To Josh: Thanks for ur fresh voice. Keep posting! MARC

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