Cult Breaker

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Tony Allen has got one  helluva story to tell.

Once a fierce adherent of  the political cult known as MOVE, Allen dedicated his life to defending death row prisoner and fellow cult member Mumia Abu-Jamal.

Allen spent his time ruthlessly attacking and smearing anyone who criticized his dread-locked hero.  One of those onslaughts led to a dialogue with one of his targets. Some superficial self-questioning by Allen turned into wholesale soul-searching – and a life-changing epiphany. Allen came to realize he was in a cult led by some pretty nasty characters.

He’s now come clean and has been publishing a cathartic series of his own revelations and writings which I have been following. And just now, Allen has started a blog to collect those writings. His URL: http://antimove.blogspot.com

If you are on the Left (and even if you are not) and have been suckered by the Free Mumia people (MOVE), this is must reading for you. Make sure you read all of Tony’s initial postings. It’s fascinating stuff: Here’s but one teaser-spoonful:

Many a reactionary political cult has tried to endear itself to the so-called "far-left" wing of the body politic over the years. There are the LaRoucheians, the oh-so-Amish Bruhderhoff; the Nader rejected Independence Party, just to name a few. Most of these groups are identified for the hucksters that they are, and exposed as such. There is, however, one group that has, for the most part, ducked under the critical eye of most "leftists" and that is the Philadelphia based personality/religious/political cult known as the MOVE Organization.

MOVE is a group that I have come to know a lot about, having been a supporter of the group for some eight years, some of that time spent in a MOVE house. This proximity to the group has given me a front row seat for the political scam that they are running on the progressive community, both in Philadelphia as well as throughout the world. It is a scam that I knowingly participated in, ultimately rejected, and now speak out on.

I don’t think that it would be too much of an assumption for me to say that most people don’t know the first thing about what MOVE believes. MOVE’s notoriety stems not from its "profound" religious doctrines, but rather from the 1985 confrontation between the group and police that left six MOVE members and five children of MOVE members dead. It is this confrontation with police and its aftermath that has allowed MOVE to inject its toxin of failed fascism into the radical body politic.

Please go to Tony’s site and read on. And let me save the True Believers some trouble. No, I don’t think Mumia Abu-Jamal should be executed. I’m a death penalty abolitionist who opposes the death penalty for the innocent AND the guilty. I have, however, written before that adopting Jamal as a poster child for the anti-death penalty was a serious strategic error. I think that more than ever.

All my support to Tony Allen for unmasking the fraud that is MOVE.

Comments

[John Moore (Useful Fools)]

Marc,
I am glad to see this change. And it smashes a bit of my hypocrisy argument, since you are rightly attacking a "left" movement (at least that's who MOVE mostly appeals to).

An interesting question is why this group has been so successful in making Mumia into a national issue. How did that work?

We see, of course, similar nonsense on the right, although the dangerous cults seem to be always tied to a perversion of Christianity, rather than a secular cause. I had a friend who had spent years in a true religious cult, and although his wasn't dangerous to others, it sure twisted the minds of those in it.

Mumia should never go free. That has been clear for a long time.

[John Moore (Useful Fools)]

Marc C writes:

All my support to Tony Allen for unmasking the fraud that is MOVE.

---------

Marc, if you asked those of us on the right who are not quite always wrong, we could have told you that the True Believers.

[Ahmed]

Interesting, Marc, true believers eh, well I assume you're referring to fire spitting radicals like myself. So, before you go on to bash MOVE way, of course, as a tired way of getting at the omnipresent wingnut left, let me save you some time. Mumia original trial was massively flawed, evidence currupted, witnesses brided, political views used against him et cetera. Every petition affirming Mumia's right for a new trial I've signed, and for what its worth, I vigorously disagree with Marc about the stakes involved in saving the life of Mumia. But, lets save that argument for now. I didn't need to read Tony Allen to know that MOVES politics and are pretty damn wacky and dangerous, too. They sound like a cult and I'll never seek out John Africa for political or mental enlightenment. Fine. And are there activist folks who unthinkingly treat both MOVE and Mumia as sort of poltical messiahs? Im guessing yes. None of this really effects the issues at hand. I'm adamant in my suppport of getting Mumia off death row, but please don't cast me as some fully devoted MOVE worshipper. For me the question of saving Mumia's life is important, but has nothing to do with creating martyr's or exalting MOVE. Surely, there's others in the Free Mumia movement who feel the same way, don't let Marc convince you otherwise

[arnold]

Ahmed, you don't get it. You MUST be a mumia cultmember and worshipper of every word ever spoken by Mumia because you disagree with Marc and you are left wing. You forget this, but Marc is happy to remind you that you must fit in his little stereotyped view of leftists who disagree with him. We are all mumia cultists, worshippers of cults, and stalinists. how could it be otherwise?

[richard lociceror]

DIRELAND reports that European papers, including LE MONDE are agog over Bush's remarks that seem to give Isreal a Greenlight to attack Iran. The Jeff Gannon story just gets juicier. John Negroponte with no intelligence background but nice links to Central American Deathsquads (anyone else remember the "Salvadorean Option" in Iraq?) and, oh yes, there is the small matter of Social Security. So what does Mark talk about? A cult and Momemia! No wonder the Left is so weak! I don't give a damn about what a bunch of nuts say, and Ramsey Claek dodsn't speak for me. Ignore them. The right never bothers to take time out and denounce the Militia movement because it woukd take them off-message. Immoral maybe, but until we can influence events its important to keep the fire on the more important targets and MOVE is not going to get us into a greater Mid East war or destroy the key componant of the social safety net.

[reg]

I had no idea that MOVE still existed or that this Mumia guy was a member. Hadn't really heard about that group of crazies before or much after that terrible incident years ago that appeared to be something akin to a police-assisted suicide. The deaths of the children made me question the sanity of all involved, from the mayor on down.

One of the dumbest things that at least a few people on the far left are prone to do is not just take up the legal or factual issues in particular prisoners' appeals or trials when there's evidence of miscarriage of justice (which is something decent people across the political spectrum have done, such as Governor Ryan of Illinois), but to magnify the individual involved into some kind of hero or spokesperson, 'a la Mumia, George Jackson, etc. I was involved in publicizing the Soledad Brothers case early on and came to despise many of the lefty politicos involved for their rank stupidity as evidenced by the aggrandizement of delusional prison auto-didacts into heroic models, movement strategists and visionary intellectuals. The psuedo-political and moralistic reductionism was rampant and the race/class guilt ran so deep it guaranteed disaster - which happened. That said, the legal critiques involved in those cases was compelling and the prison system was very likely engaged in criminal coverups of their own sordid practices. But the leap from that set of facts to Fanonist fantasy politics was, unfortunately, entirely too easy for too many - including some folks who clearly should have known better but got caught up in the romance of "ghetto gangsta" politics (since elevated to an absurdist but profitable commodity by a segment the rap industry).

The Mumia movement strikes me much the same way. There may well be valid legal issues in the case, but when the prime spokesman for the whole shebang is pretty clear that in his view the kind of mob "justice" that was carried out during the Chinese Cultural Revolution was mankind's finest moment yet, you can't help but wonder where that train could possibly be heading.

The problem is that realizing that there are people who take on these cases whose overriding interest is using them as a political hobby horse for the ultraleft doesn't really address the legal issues. But honestly, for me, when I see assclowns from The Revolutionary Communist Party promoting anything, it's more damning than a murder indictment. And I know a bit too much about the game of pyramiding well-known do-gooders to sign on to a cause to assume that Marisa Tomei's name on a petition means she knows what she's talking about. Unfortunately, I have to say the same for Cornel West and the guy from Ben & Jerry's. I know it's wrong to judge a case on anything other than it's actual merits, but for me when I see ultra-lefties who I know are not just political morons but totally devoid of any moral integrity joined by a gaggle of "Alice Walker" types to "free" somebody I tend to flee in the other direction, justice be damned.

"And I know a bit too much about the game of pyramiding well-known do-gooders to sign on to a cause to assume that Marisa Tomei's name on a petition means she knows what she's talking about. Unfortunately, I have to say the same for Cornel West and the guy from Ben & Jerry's. I know it's wrong to judge a case on anything other than it's actual merits, but for me when I see ultra-lefties who I know are not just political morons but totally devoid of any moral integrity joined by a gaggle of "Alice Walker" types to "free" somebody I tend to flee in the other direction, justice be damned."

Damn reg, would you quit posting things I can actually agree with? The Mumia "true believers" scare me, as they should any right thinking person, they scare me as much as do the buchannanites, the birchers etc.

Reg, I think I'll probably need to sharpen my ice skates as well...... and I don't skate that well. ;-)

[reg]

"The Mumia "true believers" scare me, as they should any right thinking person, they scare me as much as do the buchannanites, the birchers etc."

In the interest of sustaining something beyond a celebration of left-right political amity that could threaten the future marc's website by putting his readers to sleep, I have to say that neither the ultra-left Mumia hard-core nor the Plan 9 From Outer Space Bircher types scare me, primarily because they're insignificant and marginal. (I have a soft spot for Buchanan, so I'll leave him out of this for the time being.) The people who scare me are the hard-core hustlers of the Christian Right - the guys with the large TV audiences like Pat Robertson (who loathes the very idea of the predominantly liberal, civicly secular, broadly tolerant America that actually exists almost as much as bin Laden does) and the rest of the Bible-thumping empty suits of the airwaves who sell their supplicants a toxic mixture of religious fundamentalism, apocalyptic prophecy and knee-jerk reactionary politics drenched in bigotry and hypocrisy. They scare me because their bamboozeled and fleeced followers number in the millions and they are an essential bloc in the conscious design of Karl Rove's political coalition - which currently claims dominance. That's my definitio of "scary". I'll add that Richard LoC's point about keeping one's eye on the outrageous stuff that's earthshaking as opposed to annoying is well taken.

(Ice-hockey has been officially cancelled until further notice.)

[Wagner James Au]

Fascinating link, Marc, thanks. Two things stand out most to me in Allen's blog:

1) MOVE is not a left wing group in any meaningful sense, by our understanding of the political spectrum. In fact, if anything, its ideology and methods of enforcing that ideology are more right wing in character (see below).

2) MOVE still exists *because* of Jamal's elevated status in the American and international left. Because he's been their recurring cause celebre for 20 years, a steady trickle of donations from around the world keep coming in that primarily benefit MOVE's leadership.

http://antimove.blogspot.com/2005/02/radical-fraud.html

For MOVE, homosexuality is a disturbing and immoral violation of God’s Law. Reproductive choice is a symbol of societies degradation and devaluation of life. The mixing of races is frowned upon (even though the current leader of MOVE, herself black, has twice married white men and used invitro-fertilization in order to have a Caucasian child). Drug and alcohol use is frowned upon with a puritan’s zeal. Decision making in the group is done by its leaders and is not to be questioned. MOVE’s mostly white supporters are expected to cough up money and other "donations" for the group. Those in the group who do express dissent are subject to interventions that are as cruel as they are necessary for the control of this authoritarian sect.

[reg]

Whoa...I actually read the long Tony Allen post on his relationship to MOVE and the Mumiaites and, having previously never paid very much attention to either except to note that some of the main Mumia organizers whose names I recognized had zero credibility and the whole thing smacked of trendy psuedo-radicalism. Having read his full story, I now, officially, have WAY TOO MUCH INFORMATION ABOUT TONY ALLEN and, although his insider stuff on the Mumia defense sounds totally plausible - even predictable - after subjecting myself to the recounting of his rather mindboggling personal saga, I don't think I could ever trust his judgment on anything - frankly, I wouldn't even let this guy be in charge of what kind of pizza to order. I mean, I've done some stupid things in my life that I regret and some of them have to do with political associates, but this guy's astounding, persistent gullibility is right up there with David "I didn't know the Panthers were thugs when I got my friend killed" Horowitz. (Hope he's ultimately able to work through this with more grace than that opportunistic crackpot who's remedy for his stupidity was more stupidity.)

[reg]

(excuse the fractured grammar...it's the trademark of my spontaneous prosody)

[Ahmed]

Reg, I respectfully disagree with some of what you have to say here. Even if Mumia's poltical and legal defence is being headed by ultra sectarian vanguardist folks, it still doesn't at all the diminish the merits of his case, or what's poltically at stake in terms of saving his life. This is an argument that was made by liberals in the case of the Scottsboro boys, and they were wrong. Because the political and legal case was headed by the American CP, many American libs wanted nothing to do with defending young black men falsely convincted by the racist court system. I don't at all besmirsh Cornel West, Mandela, or the late Ossie Davis for signing petitions that call for a new trial, anmd in fact i'd argue to view this through the politics of MOVE or Clark C kissenger is a huge mistake. David Roediger one of the finest historians of labor and class in America wrote a provocative piece about waht the fight to save Mumia's life means to the workers movement in this country. I'd thought i'd share http://www.labournet.net/mumia/0004/mumtime.html

[NeoDude]

Mumia is a hustler!

[Jim Rockford]

Mumia. God. I agree (I know, shocking) with much of what Reg said about Mumia and MOVE. God what a joke.

The problem with Death Penalty Reform, specifically preventing factually innocent people from being executed, is that the perfect becomes the enemy of the good; particularly with folks who are frankly loathesome and factually GUILTY ... Mumia, "Tookie" aka "Monster" Williams, Richard Ramirez (the Nightstalker) etc. People want these monsters dead.

The ordinary person hears uninformed and holier than thou Hollywood idiots like Mike Farrell, Sean Penn (that great humanitarian), Susan Sarandon, etc. going on about folks like Mumia or Williams and they think ... "gee they're weeping over monsters," and tune out when other, more focused people want to talk about procedural reform.

The Death Penalty as currently situated is a total mess; horrible monsters who should have exited the planet years ago will probably die of old age before they get executed, and the survivors of their victims are cheated of Justice. Meanwhile, there's a very good certainty that factually innocent people are on death row and may be executed. Barry Scheck's Innocence Project IMHO deserves federal support; and an ongoing grant from the Justice Department. This is a solid reform that IMHO is doable if people get off the "free Mumia" crack.

No. Don't free Mumia. Fry Mumia. Let him face the punishment for murdering a police officer in cold blood.

People think about Mumia the same way people think about Norman "stabbin" Mailer getting Jack Henry Abbott freed. THAT monster spent only a few weeks out of prison before stabbing a young bartender to death in an argument over using the employee bathroom.

My dissent from Reg is that Pat Buchanon is awful in every respect; and that Robertson, Falwell, and the other idiots are marginalized within the Republican Party b/c 1992 showed the Kultur Kampf was a loser and the Party knows it. I loathe everything Falwell stands for, but bin Laden is a thousand times more dangerous. Anyone with any sense knows this; Falwell and Robertson are at their core cheap hucksters about *this* far away from a $20 hooker in a Metaire motel room and a consequent Swaggart meltdown; bin Laden is a true believer leading many more like him, has killed thousands already, and would kill millions more if he could.

The problem with the left is moral equivalence (Falwell = bin Laden, so there's no need to do anything about bin Laden) at best or active identification with evil at worst. Who wouldn't want to see Iran's nukes destroyed? Who wouldn't want to see Iran's government overthrown? They stone to death women and little girls. Who wouldn't want to see the beheaders of innocent aid workers, civilians, and journalists killed summarily? And who would have a problem with the Israelis taking out Iran's nukes? How could the world not be a better place?

Marc is absolutely right to post on this; if the Left is to be anything other than reflexive anti-Americanism suffused with anti-Semitism (see: Michael Scheuer) then it has to address squarely moral issues in a practical matter. So, I applaud Marc for the link.

[reg]

ahmed - I admitted that I haven't really gone into the legal details of the Mumia case because I've been put off by so much of the packaging. While I think that any capital case deserves the most serious and extensive scrutiny at the fine-toothed comb level for obvious reasons, I don't see that this case has any generalized significance in terms of strengthening a broad left/liberal movement - or even any generalized significance for reform of the "justice" system any more than the death penalty cases that Governor Ryan set aside. In fact, because Governor Ryan was a not-particularly-admirable Republican, his principled opposition to the imposition of the death penalty under dubious circumstances was landmark and had far more impact than all of the signatories of the Mumia petitions - quite a few of whom are people I admire for a range of reasons - put together. Roediger's article struggles to rise above rhetoric - there was nothing there that seemed convincing of anything other than his good intentions and overblown hopes. My humble opinion. (I used to work with Clark about 40 years ago when it appeared that he was sane - actually a likeable fellow. So is David Horowitz to some degree. But their politics are toxic, their moral compasses point deep South and they should be shunned.)

[reg]

"Robertson, Falwell, and the other idiots are marginalized within the Republican Party b/c 1992 showed the Kultur Kampf was a loser and the Party knows it"

Full on lie...tell it to Ralph Reed. Bush couldn't have been re-elected without pandering to this crowd. Get real.

[reg]

More for Rockford: Also, the assertion that I equated the danger of Falwell/Robertson with the danger of bin Laden - other than referencing the shared contempt for liberal society which Pat and Jer stated explicitly in the wake of 911 - shows that you are desperate for straw men.

[reg]

I know I've abused your hospitality marc. The good news is that I'm off to dinner. Please, somebody, post some more stuff to cover my tracks.

[Ahmed]

In his anti move blog, Tony Allen briefly mentioned Dave Lindorff who has writenn passionately about about the political implications of the struggle to get Mumia a new trial, all the while being extrememly critical of the rapidly dwindling "Mumia movement" run and conducted mostly by the sect left. His arguments are refreshing and rational; he traces the increasingly marginality of Mumia's support to the political tactics those at the helm have made. Stratetically the movement have made choices which has isolated Mumia and been counterposed to building broad support for his case. Here's Lindorff

Why has there been so little public pressure for a new trial? Why weren't masses of people outside the NAACP demanding that the organization support Abu-Jamal? Because there's almost no one left to do it.

The throngs of people who used to come out to demand a new trial for Abu-Jamal have faded away as his case, over the past several years, was taken over by ideological lawyers and others who managed to convince Abu-Jamal to make his case a political attack on the entire legal system, instead of dealing with the key issues in his trial that offered the best chance to get him a new hearing.

http://counterpunch.org/lindorff07162004.html

[NeoDude]

reg says:

"The people who scare me are the hard-core hustlers of the Christian Right."

AMEN TO THAT!!! A fringe HAS taken over the Republican Party.

The Rise of the Religious Right in the Republican Party
http://www.4religious-right.info/index.html

Then in 1988, when we won with the Bush senior campaign and carried the highest total of evangelical votes ever in American history, we lost as we always do -- the Republicans -- we lost the Jewish vote and the Hispanic vote and all those votes. We lost the Catholic vote. We were the first modern presidency to win an election and it was a landslide and not win the Catholic vote. It was barely, but we lost the Catholic vote.

How did we do it? We carried 82 percent or 83 percent of the evangelical vote. I remember when it was all over-- this was one of the reasons I got a job in the White House -- but I remember when it was all over, there was great shock from me and others saying, "Whoa, this is unhealthy." We immediately began going after the Catholic vote.

While at the same time, we were frightened by the fact that we lost all these votes and still won the White House. The message did come home. My God, you can win the White House with nothing but evangelicals if you can get enough of them, if you get them all, and they're a huge number. ...

from:
The Jesus Factor
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jesus/interviews/wead.html

Kristol described the current Republican coalition as consisting primarily of two main strains: economic and social conservatives. The economic conservatives are anti-state and the social conservatives are anti-liberal who view liberalism "as corroding and subverting the virtues that they believe must be the bedrock of decent society." He believes that the differences between the economic conservatives and the social conservatives produce "tensions" between the two groups. Kristol's long range view is that the social conservatives represent "an authentic mass movement that gathers strength with every passing year."

From:
Splitting the Republican Coalition
http://www.socialdemocrats.org/miller.html
Social Democrats, USA
Copyright: 1996, SD, USA

[John Moore (Useful Fools)]

Jim Rockford

It may be scary, but I agree with most of your insightful posting about Mumea, Falwell, the death penalty, etc.

One issue I think needs to be examined in the justice system - especially in the case of the death penalty - is the certainty of guilt. Today, legally you are either guilty or not found to be guilty. There is no middle ground. Hence a person can be sentenced to death because of bad luck in a jury pool, or because of murky evidence just enough to convince a jury. A murderer can be set free by the same situation.

Would it be better to have sentences to some extent dependent on the certainty of the conviction?

I've thought about this off and on with no hard conclusions.

Your comments on moral equivalence are likewise right on the money. It is possible for a Falwell or a Robertson to be dangerous without them coming anywhere close to Joe Stalin or Bin Laden. The exaggerated demonization is one thing that turns people off to the leftist pitches. Every demonstration I have been at where signs were carried, at least some talked about Bushitler or some other silly equivalence that is so far from reality that normal people think these folks should be in padded rooms.

You are also right on anti-Semitism. Again, the left has rotated sides - as Israel became more powerful and the Palestinians less, the left has switched to supporting people who rejoice in the death of innocents. It is quite disgusting. One way to understand Hillary Clinton is by watching her graceful switch from anti-zionist to pro-Israel when she moved to New York. Some would say (and I wrote a piece saying it) that being anti-Israel is not anti-Semitic. I think the distinction is real but not terribly relevant. The left tends to support "victims." The definition of victims is sometimes reasonable but often, well, as looney as anything Robertson/Falwell have ever said. Mumia is a great example. So are many Palestinians, because it was clear at the start of the second Intifada that there was strong support for the intentional mass murder of innocents in the population. When victims become villains, the right considers them enemies; the left goes searching without a flashlight in the depths of the "victims'" depravity looking for "root causes" that can be blamed on the west and can be somehow fixed if folks would just listen to the left.

Regarding "Robertson, Falwell, and the other idiots are marginalized within the Republican Part " - that is only partly true. Robertson and Falwell are very visible, because they say controversial (and often really screwy) things, and the MSM, always on the alert for religious nuts on the right, reports them. Furthermore, Falwell has just the right TV presence for the "bad guy" spot.

One leg of the Republican Party today is the "religious right." What is important to distinguish, however, is the difference between the majority of them and the leaders the press (not the party, not the churches) have annointed. TV evangelists are sometimes the modern day equivalent of the XERF rent-a-spot preachers. But sometimes they are not - they are just evangelical Christians. Whether you agree with their position or not, they are mostly not nuts. Even if you consider religion to be superstition, there are a couple of things to consider: (1) all humans are superstitious or religious - literally as a result of inherited brain physiology; (2) Most religions use that to create societies where folks are better off than without it. Many caveats, of course.

Going beyond that, conservatives are going full scale in defending against the kulturkamp waged by the left. The more PC actions that take place, the more people join the right's kulturkampf defense. There are, of course, variants. Not all conservatives are pro-life. Many younger conservatives are libercons - libertarian attitudes about both personal issues (abortion, homosexuality, etc) and government meddling in the economy. I used to be a libercon (after realizing that true libertarianism is, well, looney). I am now mostly a social conservative for other reasons. The point is, the movement is not monolithic, but we are fighting out from our small beach-head in the kultur kampfs.

NeoDude - regarding the "fringe" that is a huge part of the electorate, get some clues - a cluestick or a clue-lightpole or something. The "evangelical" movement is very hard to define. There is no unity except on some fundamental issues (abortion, for example). There are no universally recognized leaders. There are doctrinal differences all over the play. Furthermore, "evangelicals" tend to be very fervent for the first few years after becoming one, and then fade back to being your Cleaver Family sorts of folks. Finally, with a few exceptions that, of course, get all the media attention, few evangelicals are interested in running the country. Some (a minority) might fight about the teaching or origins of man (Genesis vs. Intelligent Design vs. Evolution) which is certainly an annoyance, but not actually that important (

Christianity is important in US politics, as is Judaism, although the latter tends to be a more secular interest. There is no possibility, barring extreme events, that Christianity is going to take over - and in general the probability has to be less than that of a right or left wing coup, which is pretty darn low.

One silly positive feedback system is going: the PC crowd attacks Christianity - typically by opposing a public display (such as the insanity where LA decided to remove a cross from their seal). The more extreme of the Christian Right gets angry, and some may demonstrate or fight legally. The whole process is polarizing - people move from the middle to join both sides. Repeat until done and smelly!

[Ahmed]

Although i have no authority or power on thios blog, can i at least plead with commentators to stay on topic. As for John Moore, I've realized that your rants are so loaded with piles and piles of utter nonsense and garbage that it amkes it pretty tough to communicate with you Against my own intuition can i actually just take up one point of yours, and please, dont send a massive reply, just respond speciffically to my query. You referred to Hillary's suppossed transition on the question of Israel, where you, ridiculously, reffered to her earlier as an anti zionist. Send me some statements or arguments Hillary has ever made which would suggest that she opposed Zionism (not like there's anything wrong with that, im anti zionist and so are many folks i admire. for you new found lovers of hitchens..he's always consistently oppossed zionsim as a political philosophy of domination, but i digress, anyways) but the suggest hillary is, is ridiculous and speaks to the massive dishonesty of conservatives. NO wonder John Moore likes pernicious lyers like John o'neil. So Moooore please respomnd with a statement, quote, argument, essay, anything from Hillary that quslifies her as an "anti zionist". Thats my challenge which i now is impossible to meet. perhpas afterward you can apologize for such a spreading such a whopping lie on this board

[John Moore (Useful Fools)]

Ahmed,

Given your insults, why should I send you anything you want. You aren't engaging in dialog, you are just venting.

Furthermore, since in almost every challenge I have put on here, you have not answered (nor has anyone else), I fell no obligation to do your book work for you.

Lexis/Nexis only charges $3/article (after you have read the summary and ordered it). Go find the statements herself. Those who were paying attention knew she was anti-Israel. Those who weren't, weren't.

On your other comments... stick it in your ear, if you can find it with your hands. I'm tired of you.

[John Moore (Useful Fools)]

An oddity... For a short time last night, another article appeared on this blog and then vanished (I composed a reply and the article was gone when I was ready to post it). Since that time I have seen nothing by Marc C.

Anyone know what's going on?

I hope it is good surf fishing or something like that.

[Achillea]

"And are there activist folks who unthinkingly treat both MOVE and Mumia as sort of poltical messiahs? Im guessing yes."

You guess correctly. Paris declared Mumia an honorary citizen some time back.

As for the validity of the trial itself, if an article on counterpunch.org said the sun rose in the east, I'd head for a window to check. However, Cecil Adams did an article on it about ten years ago.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/950721.html

***
Behold mutual contradiction:

"1) MOVE is not a left wing group in any meaningful sense, by our understanding of the political spectrum.

2) MOVE still exists *because* of Jamal's elevated status in the American and international left. "

Taking repugnant attitudes shared by the extremes on both sides and labeling them 'rightist' is absurd, as is taking virtuous bipartisan attitudes and calling them 'leftist.' (And vice-versa, when conseravatives do it). Sorry, but no amount of finger-pointing at racists on the right is going to change the fact that MOVE and Mumia, in all their ugly racist glory, are the left's babies.