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Thursday, October 13, 2005

Comments

GM Roper

Gosh Marc, this post has been up for a while and no other comments.

I read it, it is very well written but absolutely wrong. The Bush administration will weather this storm as it has, as Clinton's did, as Carter's did (even though he was only a one timer), as Reagan's did.

To answer your ultimate question though, the Democrats don't have the talent to make it happen (fill the vacuum that is). They couldn't even get Kerry elected, or for that matter Gore in what should have been a landslide for gore given the circumstances (and don't any of you other folks start polluting the thread with "It was stolen." That is garbage)

Most of the giggling from the left is not only pre-mature, it's silly. Again, as I said, be prepaired to wipe the drool off your collective chins as you fantisize about Karl being frog marched out of the white house.

David Martin

To add to your litany of Republican/Bush debacles: the current feeding frenzy among White House staffers who are trying ferociously to devour each other and the spasmodic body language of the increasingly bubblized president. Remember you read this here first: look for George Bush to have a major public meltdown soon.

Michael Turner

"The Bush administration will weather this storm as it has ..."

"As it has"?? What, do they have Brownie in charge of this one too? And you used that chin-drool line already, GM.

I'm not expecting a public meltdown from Dubya, though. He really is too well-handled for that.

Marc,

I like your column, but I tend to agree with Roper about the meaning of all these scandals. I'm writing about Upton Sinclair's novel "Oil" which fictionalizes the Teapot Dome oil scandal during the Harding administeration. In that scandal Albert B. Fall, U.S. Secretary of the Interior, leased, without competitive bidding, the navy-owned oil fields to two oil moguls: Harry F. Sinclair got Teapot dome while Edward L. Doheny, the biggest oil mogul in L.A., got the field at Elk Hills, Calif.

During 1922–23 Sen. Thomas J. Walsh investigated these transactions and "found that in 1921, Doheny had lent Fall $100,000, interest-free, and that upon Fall's retirement as Secretary of the Interior (Mar., 1923) Sinclair also “loaned” him a large amount of money." The results of Sen Walsh's investigations was that Fall was indicted and convicted of accepting bribes, sentenced to a year in prison and fined $100,000. Also indicted for bribery were Doheny and Sinclair who were acquited, but Sinclair was subsequently sentenced to prison for contempt of the Senate and for employing detectives to shadow members of the jury in his case.

The Supreme Court restored the Teapot Dome oil fields to the U.S. But Calvin Coolidge was elected president. So even scandals at the highlest level of government in the 1920s didn't dislodge the Republicans from the presidency.

Julia Stein

Marc,

I like your column, but I tend to agree with Roper about the meaning of all these scandals. I'm writing about Upton Sinclair's novel "Oil" which fictionalizes the Teapot Dome oil scandal during the Harding administeration. In that scandal Albert B. Fall, U.S. Secretary of the Interior, leased, without competitive bidding, the navy-owned oil fields to two oil moguls: Harry F. Sinclair got Teapot dome while Edward L. Doheny, the biggest oil mogul in L.A., got the field at Elk Hills, Calif. During 1922–23 Sen. Thomas J. Walsh investigated these transactions and "found that in 1921, Doheny had lent Fall $100,000, interest-free, and that upon Fall's retirement as Secretary of the Interior (Mar., 1923) Sinclair also “loaned” him a large amount of money." The results of Sen Walsh's investigations was that Fall was indicted and convicted of accepting bribes, sentenced to a year in prison and fined $100,000. Also indicted for bribery were Doheny and Sinclair who were acquited, but Sinclair was subsequently sentenced to prison for contempt of the Senate and for employing detectives to shadow members of the jury in his case. The Supreme
Court restored the Teapot Dome oil fields to the U.S. But Calvin Coolidge was elected president. So even scandals at the highlest level of government in the 1920s didn't dislodge the Republicans from the presidency.

rosedog

Marc, my Pollyanna-ish hope is that there's a good new breed of Democratic lawmaker arising at the state level, Paul Hackett et al. (Not that I’m holding Hackett up as some second coming or anything. His is merely the first representative name that comes to mind without looking it up---or pouring myself a third cup of coffee.)

GM...It's over. Even my Republican brother is starting to make Bush jokes, and the late night comics are vicious. Yet nobody expects these folks to go quietly into that good night. To the contrary, in terms of worst paranoid fears; mine is that BushCo has long believed that, if it all really goes south---which is what appears to be happening---their one sure fire way out is to start another war.

reg

'their one sure fire way out is to start another war.'

I'm sure it crosses their minds, but with what troops ? I'm hoping they have at least enough common sense to just lay low and pocket the money. I mean, do you think Bush really gives a shit if the crackpots and zealots of PNAC, JEEZUS INC., Grover's Gang and The Federalist Society haven't gotten whole loaves ? He's done hella damage to this country and his friends have been hugely rewarded. Pretty impressive track record for an accidental presidency.

reg

"my Pollyanna-ish hope is that there's a good new breed of Democratic lawmaker arising at the state level, Paul Hackett et al"

https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051004/ap_on_go_co/congress_war_veterans

Dan O

Predictions are always trouble, but I think the future is clear. My crystal ball says near historic losses for the Republicans in the mid-term elections. Would we ultimately have Nader to thank for that?

rosedog

Reg, re: the link to: "Six Democratic War Vets Seek House Seats..."

Uh, yeah, exactly. Those guys. And others like 'em.

About my war paranoia. Nah, not troops. (What troops?) Tactical nukes---but it would require a casus beli. Of course no American administration would dream of manufacturing one a' those thingies. My God! That would be wrong!

Okay, taking off my shiny, tin hat for now, and putting aside the daily watch for black helicopters.

marky48

"the void left by a claque of bumblers and grifters."

That's about it. If you keep denying failure will others let it go away? Only a drooler would see this series of malfunctions as a good record of public service. Worshipful loyal subjects they are, an blind to reality.

marky48

"So even scandals at the highlest level of government in the 1920s didn't dislodge the Republicans from the presidency."

No the result of the Andrew Mellon economic policies eventually did.

richard lo cicero

Rosedog I know these guys are scary but even this crew knows that playing with Nukes is a bad idea. I think even if they wanted to there is every reason to believe that word of it would leak out from the Pentagon and the ensuing uproar would kill it.

Julia, the Teapot Dome Scandal didn't effect Calvin Cooledge because no one tagged him with any wrongdoing. In addition that was the year the Dems imploded at their convention when a plank condemning the Klu Klux Klan split the party and a record 104 ballots transpired before the party turned to a Wall Street Lawyer, John W. Davis, to be their nominee. It was that debacle that led Will Rogers to make his famous remark, "I don't belong to an organized political party - I'm a Democrat!"

I think 2006 will be a very good year for Dems and a very bad year for the GOP. And the retaking of Congress is no longer a Pipe Dream. And don't single out the Dems for getting spines. Anyone notice the MSM lately? I watched today's press briefing on CSPAN and it was vicious! Boy has the worm turned!

I think the hidden story is the disillusionment of the religious right with the GOP. The attacks on Bush from people who should be his supporters reminds me of what we usually see among Dems and Lefties. It has to be a new experience for people in a party that has been so hierarchical and where the trains used to run on time. Now nobody is in an organized political party. We live in interesting political times.

Mavis Beacon

I think the public unraveling may lead to some splits among the inner circle that we don't know much about yet. I think I remember some blogger claiming there's animosity between Andy Card and Scooter (I might have that wrong). And we're nearing that point when a president starts to think about his legacy. The Bush legacy is in a lot of trouble. The take-no-prisoners politics of Rove must not be looking quite as attractive to a president who probably doesn't want to be remembered as the guy with 2% support among African Americans. https://thinkprogress.org/2005/10/13/two-percent/

Marc Cooper

I'm busy working on the border so I'll be brief. GM and Julia-- it can't get much worse. An interesting symmetry here from two friends from the right and the left. Neither can let go of Bush.... he's already done and over. The only question is what impact -- if any-- this will have on 2006 and 2008 elections. nothing automatic here.

Abbas-Ali Abadani

rosedog: "About my war paranoia. Nah, not troops. (What troops?) Tactical nukes---but it would require a casus beli. Of course no American administration would dream of manufacturing one a' those thingies. My God! That would be wrong!

"Okay, taking off my shiny, tin hat for now, and putting aside the daily watch for black helicopters."

Such things have happened before -- under less, shalle we say, morally challenged administrations. The Gulf of Tonkin, "Remember the Maine!", the "unprovoked" attack on the Lusitania, etc.

Although of course, such "conspiracy" talk is only common amongst East Europeans and us primitive third world types. This is because our brains haven't yet developed to the point where we shut off our critical thinking faculties whenever someone waves a badge or a flag in our face and says "this is so" -- which seems to be the socially acceptable thing to do among sophisticated western intellectuals.


Dan O: "Predictions are always trouble, but I think the future is clear. My crystal ball says near historic losses for the Republicans in the mid-term elections. Would we ultimately have Nader to thank for that?"

And, much like a wounded animal, this is precisely when they're at their most dangerous.

Incidentally, I was just listening to Marduk's "La Grande Danse Macabre" CD and the lyrics to "Obedience Unto Death" just seemed to exemplify everything that this administration is about.

https://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/marduk/lagrandedansemacabre.html#2

Could be that the the columns which halt here
That these endless rows of men
are scattered in the wind, split up and disperse
and will desert me, could be, could be

my lips may stammer mad words
but the flag will only fall when I fall
and be a shroud, covering my corpse

Obedience unto death - never to fall aside
forever to stride
on deaths wings they ride

We must be dominated by one will
we must form one unity
we must be held together by one discipline
and form one obedience

Forwards, forwards call the fanfares
for the last time the reveille has sounded
for battle sees us stand in stern array

obedience unto death....

I shall remain faithful, even though deserted by all
I shall carry the flag, staggering and alone

We march into eternity
for our banner is greater than death

behold the knight in solemn black manner
with a skull on his crest and blood on his banner

in black we are dressed
in blood we are drenched
with a death's heads on our collars
we stand unshaken

Obedience

Mavis Beacon

I just wanted to briefly correct myself about the 2% link. I've been told that the number of African Americans interviewed was only 87 so the that stat is pretty meaningless. Don't have time to look it up myself, but treat that stat with skepticism.

reg

I'm assuming others have seen the speculation by Josh Marshall that Harriet Miers would almost certainly have been very tight inside the loop regarding the Prez' knowledge/actions in l'affaire Plame. Could it be that the explanation for this bizarre appointment is something so simple - and so craven - as to create some distance between her and the investigation ? Nothing surprises me anymore...

GM Roper

Reg, I understand that thorazine is still used for aggitated schizophrenia. ;-)

I mean after all, that is a reach even for a committed leftish type Democrat don'cha think?

reg

What possible rational reason could there have been for nominating this person to the Supreme Court...I'm afraid I'm not the one who could use some drugs to cure severe psychological problems. I predict a public meltdown by Bush before long...

If I were you I'd look over my shoulder to keep an eye on the real droolers.

marky48

Reg never underestimate Roper's ability to hang himself with very little rope.

GM Roper

Reg: "I predict a public meltdown by Bush before long..."

Care to give an insight into how long is "before long"

Marky, is your intellect really that low? Can't you come up with something at least humerous?

Virgil Johnson

I wish I could believe that an able vanguard would step in with this almost inevitable fall of the present administration. I am really looking for signs of the better days ahead of us - and than it happened. I heard Dylan's song "The times They Are A Changing" on TV, and my heart skipped a beat - I went into the living room and....it was a commercial for Kaiser Permanente. I think this is a sign....that nothing is going to change.

reg

how long is "before long"...


Can't speculate.

reg

"Can't speculate"

(GMR - That was supposed to be an ironic comment, because I'm obviously engaged in some loose speculation here. Just thought I'd toss that out before you indignantly point out the obvious and I have to explain that I was making a joke at my own expense. Saving you a post, since my track record at humor has been less than stellar on recent threads.)

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