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Tuesday, October 18, 2005

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reg

"his wife, who had not been a CIA operative for over five years"

Another falsehood...where do you get this crap?

Jim Russell

So I take it the outcome of the Iraqi election didn't agree with you Richard. Do you feel like you have lost somehow? If so, why?

reg

I think Richard feels like elections in which 99% of the votes in one ethnic province count one way and 99% of the votes in another ethnic province count the opposite signifies the liklihood of a loss to anyone who hoped against hope that we could impose some kind of workable, friendly Iraqi democracy by military intervention and occupation - rather than incite a civil war with the likely outcome that most of the country will come under a Shiite theocracy closely allied with Iran.

Given that is a far more likely prospect (I'd lay the odds at 10 to 1 and bet the farm) than ANYTHING ever proffered by the Bushniks in their menu of war rationales, yes, I think it's fair to say that Americans - that is Americans who value the lives of their troops and don't see them as gambling chips for irresponsible and incomptent ideologues - are, in the majority, feeling a sense of loss. Richard is, I believe, one of those Americans. As, I believe, he's a Vietnam veteran this undoubtedly cuts deeper with him even than with most of the rest of us.

reg

(Note: When I say "hoped against hope we could impose democracy by military intervention, etc.", I don't mean supported the war but hoped the fait accompli wouldn't turn into the disaster many of us feared. Unfortunately, it has by any reasonable measure against what we were told by the Beltway war council when they cooked this one up.

richard lo cicero

Mr Russell the majority of Sunnis voted "NO" on the new Constitution. That fact is agreed by all. But the vote by Shia and Kurds ratifies this document. There will now be a four month interregnum while an attempt will be made to make it more paletable to the Sunni. There is no reason to think that the Shia, long suffering under minority rule, will accomidate and the Kurds want autonomy anyway. So all this vote accomplished is a prelude to the long awaited civil war, And no quick exit for American troops. And a possible regional conflict as Turkey, Iran, and the Sunni states take sides. I don't celebrate that but neither do I celebrate another false start.

richard lo cicero

To get back to Judy Miller for a bit her role in this affair is critical. There is little doubt that she served as a conduit for the Adminisration's argument that Saddam was a threat to to the US because of possesion of WMDs. We know from colleagues that she skewed the facts, ala Jason Blair, and used the prestiege of the TIMES to whip up war sentiment.

This affair is not really about Joe Wilson ir his wife. What it concerns is a cabal in government that wanted to invade Iraq from day one - see Paul O'Neill's book - and lied us into it. And when others in the military and intelligence establishment tried to tell the truth they were, systematically smeared, reassigned, or forced to resign. GHW Bush said that outing CIA Agents was an act of treason. I'll bet he's inwardly steaming and Judy helped make it happen.

Jim Russell

Reg, I don't want to OT Marc's post much so I will keep this short.

I am a Vietnam era draftee RA 1964-1967. I didn't do a tour in Vietnam itself by pure chance, my Nike Missile MOS I think.

Anyway, I didn't approve of George's movement into Iraq as quickly as he did, but would have agreed if the UN would not address the Saddam menace, it had to be done.

I hope you agree if we based the interest of our people on the unfairness of whose lives are at stake in the military, we would not move when it is needed, Iraq not being one of those times, Afghanistan yes IMO. The poor have always carried an unfair load in all wars in all countries, and it needs changing.

Now that we are in Iraq we need to do what we can to support a positive outcome for the very poor people there, through political stability, so many more lives can be saved over the long term. Can you think of a better way to do it than accomplishing a gov't by the people?

reg

JR - Bromides aren't going to solve this one.

Also, simply from the perspective of treating people who serve in our military with the respect and consideration they deserve, I think the civilians who dreamed this one up and have been running the show should be shot. Also any high command who have been complicit in putting our people in an untenable situation and not giving them the most basic resources they need to survive it. I can't come up with a legal way of doing it, but it's been my admittedly hyperbolic reaction to the madness of a lot of the unbelievably irresponsible decisionmaking - aside from the deliberate and totally bullshit ginning up of a crumbling dictatorship as a clear and present danger to our security related specifically to 9/11 and pushing an in invasion even after UN inspectors were on the ground - stuff like not attempting to secure weapons stockpiles, not providing troops with proper personal or vehicular armor, letting the most basic security situation get out of hand almost immediately, tossing aside any and all occupation planning by people who had any competence, not taking out Zarqawi's camps in the Kurdish region prior to the invasion in order to keep an "al Qaeda connection" on the table, running the whole goddam operation on ideological fumes and PR gas against all evidence of reality on the ground, incessantly pimping 9/11 and the war with political garbage like the "Mission Accomplished" stunt, doing a shitty job in Afghanistan because their eye was on Iraq, deliberately creating grey areas regarding treatment of PUCs and POWs that undermined discipline and morale, etc, etc., ad nauseum.

Rumsfeld and Cheney and some of their key aides in particular have been players in this arena for so long and project so many pretenses of "competence" and "experience" that they should be dragged before some public forum - like a Congress with balls (that we don't have) - and held accountable for this disaster. Rice and Bush are naifs who have simply been in over their heads from day one. But they all deserve to be shot, in my admittedly emotional and not terribly humble opinion. (Give me a couple of drinks and I'll tell you how I really feel.)

reg

Here's a rather fun bit in today's New York Daily News about Karl Rove who "...friends and even political adversaries acknowledge is the architect of the President's rise from baseball owner to leader of the free world.

"As special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald nears a decision, perhaps as early as today, on whether to issue indictments in his two-year probe, Bush has already circled the wagons around Rove, whose departure would be a grievous blow to an already shell-shocked White House staff and a President in deep political trouble.

"Asked if he believed indictments were forthcoming, a key Bush official said he did not know, then added: 'I'm very concerned it could go very, very badly.'

" 'Karl is fighting for his life,' the official added, 'but anything he did was done to help George W. Bush. The President knows that and appreciates that.'

"Other sources confirmed, however, that Bush was initially furious with Rove in 2003 when his deputy chief of staff conceded he had talked to the press about the Plame leak.

"'Bush has always known that Rove often talks with reporters anonymously and he generally approved of such contacts', one source said.

"But the President felt Rove and other members of the White House damage-control team did a clumsy job in their campaign to discredit Plame's husband, Joseph Wilson, the ex-diplomat who criticized Bush's claim that Saddam Hussen tried to buy weapons-grade uranium in Niger.

"A second well-placed source said some recently published reports implying Rove had deceived Bush about his involvement in the Wilson counterattack were incorrect and were leaked by White House aides trying to protect the President.

" 'Bush did not feel misled so much by Karl and others as believing that they handled it in a ham-handed and bush-league way,' the source said. " (end clip)


I don't know about anybody else, but I've got a special bottle tucked away that more than likely gets cracked open when Fitz lays down his hand.

marky48

This is another "all the president's men" scenario: Hacks who will stop at nothing to smear all challengers. We've all heard what they think about the reality-based approach. Just like Woody truth to them is whatever wild-ass notion they may hold at a given time regardless of updates to the fact file.

Publish A Book

Yeah, the NY Times is a real defender and ally of this administration. Why couldn't I see that? Also, why can't I understand that this administration is totally incompetent but has the brilliance to pull off grand deceits and global fraud? It all makes sense--if you're on the left.

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