Justifying Torture

The web-broadcast beheading of Nicholas Berg has led some to conclude that – by contrast—what happened at Abu Ghraib wasn’t so bad. They are half right. The torture (or in RummySpeak the “stress positions”) inflicted by U.S. troops indeed pales against the barbarity of the beheaders.

But it was, nevertheless, torture. What we’ve heard today from some of the U.S. Senators who viewed the 1000 additional photos out of Iraq confirms that.

My friend, Chilean writer Ariel Dorfman (author of “Death and the Maiden” ) refers back to Dostoyevsky’s The Brothers Karamazov and argues in The Guardian that torture is never justified:

“Make no mistake: every regime that tortures does so in the name of salvation, some superior goal, some promise of paradise. Call it communism, call it the free market, call it the free world, call it the national interest, call it fascism, call it the leader, call it civilisation, call it the service of God, call it the need for information; call it what you will, the cost of paradise, the promise of some sort of paradise, Ivan Karamazov continues to whisper to us, will always be hell for at least one person somewhere, sometime…

…Torture is not a crime committed only against a body, but also a crime committed against the imagination. It presupposes, it requires, it craves the abrogation of our capacity to imagine someone else's suffering, to dehumanise him or her so much that their pain is not our pain. It demands this of the torturer, placing the victim outside and beyond any form of compassion or empathy, but also demands of everyone else the same distancing, the same numbness, those who know and close their eyes, those who do not want to know and close their eyes, those who close their eyes and ears and hearts.”

Comments

[steve]

The torture (or in RummySpeak the “stress positions”) inflicted by U.S. troops indeed pales against the barbarity of the beheaders.

--hold it, we have on our side video, audio and still photos of rape, sodomy, beatings, electricution threats, dog attacks, and murder in the first degree. we use the photos and videos to threaten. they use their photos/videos to threaten. i'm missing something about how theirs pales in comparison with ours?

[Marc Cooper]

Steve.. you are really a lost soul in desperae need of of a moral compass. You might as well be working for Bush, really. If you cannot see any difference between al-qaeda and a U.S. Army that produces people like General Taguba, then you are hardly going to be presuaded by any arguments from me.

[nickname]

i'm missing something about how theirs pales in comparison with ours

If you're missing something, you haven't been reading Cooper very long. He's a left-wing 'iconoclast.' That is, a bourgois centrist who writes for lefty magazines. He thinks bombs aimed at Muslims are feminist and admonishes folks like Chomsky for daring to imply that all murderers are roughly equal. A never-was who will never be. Hence, it's no prob making idiotic moral distinctions between beheaders and broom-handled rapists long before the facts are known.

But no worries, nobody reads him. I'm only here for the grim spectacle. Sometimes I need a reminder of how much I detest the establishment 'left.' Cooper is truly odious.

[nickname]

Steve.. you are really a lost soul in desperae need of of a moral compass.

Why don't you answer the man's question? You've shot back with an ad hominem and an irrlevancy.

It's bad enough that you're mostly wrong about everything. But do ya gotta be so stupid about it.

[steve]

If you cannot see any difference between al-qaeda and a U.S. Army that produces people like General Taguba, then you are hardly going to be presuaded by any arguments from me.

---that doesn't answer the question, it just avoids the issue it seems to me. one can say that having a taguba around is a good and lucky thing, though the photos being released are really what makes the difference and that came from a soldier who broke rules as I understand it.

i wish it were as simple as we are the good guys, they are the evildoers, i think it's more complex than that as events have already shown long ago.

[gmroper]

Mr. Cooper, I find you post and response somewhat troubling. That torture occurs in war should be understood, it is committed by people who either have little or no training or by design. Our enemys from WWII through Korea and Vietnam and indeed in Kosovo used torture routinely as a matter of policy. Both my father and grandfather told me stories of courts martial with subsequent hanging of US and Allied troops in WWI and WWII for egregious violations of the rules. Too, since it's adoption, the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) specifies the duties of the military regarding prisoners and civilians in war time. Taguba used the UCMJ in making recommendations for action against individuals from a brig.gen. on down. That is the law. Would you have had him violate the law with some form of extra judicial punishment over and above what UCMJ requires?

If you don't like the codes contained in UCMJ fine, change them through congress. But don't complain about General Taguba for utilizing the only tools he has at hand. Could he have done more? Perhaps. Could he have recommended harsher punishment? Perhaps. But, unless you are an expert in the UCMJ you don't know and to spout off regarding what he should or shouldn't have done according to established law is of questionable merit.

As to the difference between the savage sawing the head off of a prisoner (and one that was there - in Iraq - with apparantly altrutistic motives) and what occurred at the detention camp; if you can't see the difference, then there is something wrong with a moral compass indeed, and it's not the compass of Steve.

Have people in detention died? Yes, has it been cruel and awful? Yes again. Do the malefactors need serious punishment? Yes and Yes again. But the vast majority of "victims" are not nice people, Berg apparantly was. Too, I haven't heard anyone note, though it ought to be obvious that as Americans commited these vile acts they weren't shouting Allah Akbar! God is Great!

My paternal grandfather was a Japanese POW in the Phillipines in WWII, he was captured on Mindinao and two years after capture was being tortured to find out where his Phillipine troops were... as if he would know two years later. Did we retaliate against the Japanese torturers? Yes. Against the Nazi and Italian Fascist torturers? Again Yes. Against the American torturers? Again and Again YES! That, my dear left of center friend, is the difference between them and us. We try and when the evidence supports it, convict. They on the other hand (our enemies in the ME) ululate, cry out that God is Great and praise the malefactors while dancing in the streets. Do you see that? Do you even comprehend the difference?

I have, over the last 48 hours or so heard members of the media say that the only reason that Berg was beheaded was because of our actions at Abu Ghraib. My question to them would be: What was Al Qaeda's justification for 9/11, for the torture/murder of Daniel Pearl and even the beating of Robert Fisk (Though Fisk seems to think he deserved it for being a white European). You really need to understand that the actions of our guys were the actions of a few socio-paths and maybe even psycho-paths. The actions of the Islamo-fascists is because that is the way they are ~ animals and barbarians.

There is a missing or disabled moral compass here and it doesn't belong to Steve.

[Michael J. Totten]

Steve: "i'm missing something about how theirs pales in comparison with ours?"

For starters, what our boys did was against the law and they're being punished for it by the U.S. military. The U.S. military began the investigation months ago, and informed us about it in a (mostly ignored) press release. Not to mention the fact that the thugs who cut off Mr. Berg's head would murder you and your entire family if everyone got out of their way. You think the fact that you're an anti-war Bush-hater would spare your life? Dream on.

Conservatives are often accused of lacking "nuance" and seeing the world in "black and white." There is some truth to this some of the time, but I see the same sort of thing here from radical leftists. Not every bad thing is equally bad. I know you like to think of yourselves as a tiny white-hatted minority in a world full of black hats. Some of you (maybe not you personally, but plenty of others) seem to get a kick out of declaring either directly or less so that you're one of the few who are "perceptive" enough to see that the liberal-democratic United States is "just as bad as" a genocidal right-wing totalitarian regime. That's about as perceptive as the doofuses who think the Democrats are secretly Communists. The world isn't like that, and you just aren't that special. I do hope you get some emotional satisfaction from it because it looks to the rest of us like tedious, deliberate, and even religious obtuseness.

[steve]

For starters, what our boys did was against the law and they're being punished for it by the U.S. military.

--our boys? interesting expression. i think it's more than just a few boys as is patently obvious by now. i await the 'punishments' of the higher ups involved in this, not to mention the CIA, civilian contractors, and other unaccountables.
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The U.S. military began the investigation months ago, and informed us about it in a (mostly ignored) press release.

--hmm, that conflicts with what the ICRC, Amnesty International and HRW all say about the matter.
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Not to mention the fact that the thugs who cut off Mr. Berg's head would murder you and your entire family if everyone got out of their way.

--i can think of not a small number of american war lobbiers who would do the same i'm afraid. btw michael, as long as you're being so evenhanded, you are aware that not a small number of Iraqis would say *exactly* what you are saying about American soldiers, and they would be speaking from direct experience?
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You think the fact that you're an anti-war Bush-hater would spare your life? Dream on.

--so. you guys also would have me believe that Sadr is a mass murderer, probably even want me to think he is al qaeda, and that he is a person we cannot negotiate with under any circumstances, while we negotiate with him at this very moment. what am i supposed to do, get all squeamish now that you've told me that it's not PC to suggest that anything less than 24-7 war war war is the solution to such madness. Have you listened to nothing the Berg family has been saying about such matters? oh, oops, there i go again 'using' that poor family.
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I do hope you get some emotional satisfaction from it because it looks to the rest of us like tedious, deliberate, and even religious obtuseness.

--there's very little deliberate or carefully thought out about the notion that our torture is somehow less odius than theirs. even if we have courts that are sometimes fair and a press that occasionally gets over its fear of being called 'liberal' or 'unpatriotic' and finally reports something that pushes debate forward slightly faster than an inch at a time.
at least i can come up with better analysis than 'the enemy is islam' lobby that keeps on showing up to comment on your blogs and who receive no harsh rebukes from you.

[gmroper]

Marc, I misread and posted some accusations that were unjustified. I apologize to you and send those comments towards steve instead. He indeed lacks a moral compass (actually, he has one but on the back it carries this: Warning! This Moral Equivalency Compass points everywhere at the same time.")

But, why on earth would you say that he ought to work for Bush?

[steve]

roper, you've managed to completely misread both my and marc's positions.
in a nutshell you're mistaken i'm afraid, the overwhelming majority of the prisoners at abu graib and probably most iraqi prisons are not associated with the resistance 1) and 2) are not threats to the US's illegal occupation of Iraq. All you need to do is read the WSJ article which leaked the ICRC report a few days ago.

[steve]

You really need to understand that the actions of our guys were the actions of a few socio-paths and maybe even psycho-paths. The actions of the Islamo-fascists is because that is the way they are ~ animals and barbarians.

--you mean they're untermenschen? interesting theory, so why are we negotiating with them in Iraq right now as we speak?

Steve: the abuses at Abu Ghraib were grotesque. The torturers deserve the fullest punishment permitted by the law. But can you imagine 4 American troops cutting a randomly selected Muslim's head off while chanting "God is great"? Raping some prisoners and beating others to death is about as bad as it gets. But the boys from Al Qaeda somehow managed to one up us. Allah Akbar.

[Luke Weiger]

Steve: the abuses at Abu Ghraib were grotesque. The torturers deserve the fullest punishment permitted by the law. But can you imagine 4 American troops cutting a randomly selected Muslim's head off while chanting "God is great"? Raping some prisoners and beating others to death is about as bad as it gets. But the boys from Al Qaeda somehow managed to one up us. Allah Akbar.

[Marc Cooper]

Roper.. no problem. Who isn't confused? I sa steve should work for Bush because in steve's world bush is the single most evil figure..and in arguing the way steve does he might as well be working for what her percieves to be "the other side."

[gmroper]

Marc, very gracious of you. I agree re: working for Bush given the context as you stated it. But, being a Vet, a Hawk, a conservative and a sometimes republican, I have to disagree to the point of working for Bush. We don't want him and I suspect that Kerry wouldn't either. Hmm, perhaps Osama has an opening or two.

Steve writes: "--you mean they're untermenschen? interesting theory, so why are we negotiating with them in Iraq right now as we speak?"

Steve, typical non-response response We on the right of center have come to expect from many of those left of center. I never said that they were untermenschen, a connotation fraught with images of hitlerism and nazi race theory. That you would use it confirms my point. What I said was that they were animals and barbarians.

The term barbarians has an exact meaning in terms of behavior that goes against civilized norms and to my knowledge is not a term applied to animals. The reference to animals I admit may cast aspersions on animals, some of which are fine upstanding individuals, my two cats being perhaps an exception.

Again, I'll take you back to my original posting: "There is a missing or disabled moral compass here . . ." Originally I said it wasn't yours. I misspoke.

[steve]

I never said that they were untermenschen, a connotation fraught with images of hitlerism and nazi race theory.

--right, you said 'animals', how radically different. sounds like some extreme right wing rhetoric to me. btw, he US military is right now negotiating with the people you call 'animals'. so you might want to take your complaints to them.
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The term barbarians has an exact meaning in terms of behavior that goes against civilized norms and to my knowledge is not a term applied to animals

--ah yes, murder in the first degree by guards at a prison, photographs and all, are 'civilized', beheading is 'animalistic'. wow. btw, i notice you run away from the ICRC report that at least 70-90% of the detainees are not involved in the resistance [or what you would call 'terrorism in all instances' surely]. so are these folks animals or humans?
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[steve]

But can you imagine 4 American troops cutting a randomly selected Muslim's head off while chanting "God is great"? Raping some prisoners and beating others to death is about as bad as it gets.

--I tell ya Luke, sounds like you're saying our torturers are more civilized than theirs. you forgot to mention we murdered iraqis and photographed that too, the delight in the photos shown by the guards. the lack of remorse on the part of some of the soldiers in the aftermath. btw, i'd say go take a look at joe ryan's website at kstp, now cached on the web. yeah, i'd say i don't see much difference between joe ryan and the folks who cut off Berg's head.

[Michael J. Totten]

Steve,

You've seen the nasty pictures of what the US soldiers did, I'm sure. At this point, who hasn't?

Now take a look at the snuff film.

http://www.davva.com/beheaded.wmv

You can't really compare the two unless you have seen them both. Let me know if you still think they're equal if you can stomach it.

[Mar Cooper]

Steve.. I regret that you are getting so much attentiion and so much satisfaction from the responses on this site. But then again, it must be extremely painful for you to live in a country that you so thoroughly despise.

You can't really compare the two unless you have seen them both. Let me know if you still think they're equal if you can stomach it.

--i'm not sure, you're telling me the pictures of the poor bloke packed in ice and full of wounds that led to an early and unnecessary death are any less gruesome than the horrifying video? that's an amazing argument you're making there. in a nutshell what you're saying is that american deaths are more noteworthy than iraqi deaths, instead of the more truthful reality that both deaths are horrific and acts of torture.

isn't beheading the preferred mode of death penalty execution by Bush's good friends the Royal Monarchy of Saudi Arabia? What is fascinating to me is that your apparent test of patriotism (and Marc's evidently) now is whether or not people will declare that one act of cold blooded murder is worse than another.

Marc, as to the comment on how much I hate America, wrong again. Critics of American foreign policy have heard that line since the beginning of time. I expect the war lobby to be saying similar stuff to Mr. Berg's father now too, since he has a 'war is not the answer' sign in his front yard now.

[miklos rosza]

There's a lot of pleasure to be had in being a "permanent oppositionist." No responsibility, because the only solutions are utopian and anything less is filth. Thus, one is always righteous, always clean.

Oh, and because this way one is always a "rebel," one may have the illusion one is forever young.

[steve]

There's a lot of pleasure to be had in being a "permanent oppositionist."

--I take Rosa Parks as a model, who to this day participates in forms of patriotically incorrect forms of opposition. if it's ok for her to oppose war in the post-911 age, it's ok for me too, no amount of guilt tripping from the mussolini lobby can change that i'm afraid.
as for youth. i'm almost 40 and not shy about telling anyone. have no desire to go back to my youth, have a good paying job, a child, a wife. your stereotypes are based on paranoid fantasies about the left?

[Luke]

Steve:

Most folks think intent makes a difference. The poor bloke in ice presumably died because some people decided to beat him very, very badly--but I doubt they wanted to kill him (the assholes who beat him to death probably also thought he was some sort of terrorist). The Al Qaeda killers, by contrast, aimed at the death of an innocent foreigner/Jew and chose a particularly heinous method (beheadings in the House of Saud aren't brought about with 6-8 inch knives). Race has nothing to do with it.

[miklos rosza]

Steve, what do you mean by the "Mussolini lobby"? That anyone who disagrees with you is a fascist?