Nailing Pinochet

Randy Paul at Beautiful Horizons reminds me how the noose is tightening around not only General Pinochet but also about his namesake son. Baby Pinochet got thrown into the clink last week accused of running a stolen car ring (a step up the moral ladder from his miscreant father).

Meanwhile. the General himself remains in a world of hurt, increasingly enmeshed in the Riggs Bank scandal.

May God grant Pinochet enough more time on earth so that he can do at least a few days of hard time before passing into Heaven-- which seems full of his ilk.

Comments

[GMRoper]

I don't think Heaven has ANY of Pinochet's ilk. In fact, I'm sure he will receive a WARM reception where he's headed.

[Michael J. Totten]

What Roper said.

[Randy Paul]

While I am certainly glad to see Pinochet feeling the heat, it does bother me that what finally may turn his most ardent defenders against him is not the torture and disappearances (i.e. crimes against humanity), not the book-burning, not the fact that his constitution subverts many aspects of civilian rule to the military, not the contemptible jokes prasing the economy of burying the disappeared two to a grave in Santiago's General Cemetery, but the simple act of his lining his pockets illegally.

[George Roper]

Randy, sadly, what turns a lot of people against their particular former poster boys (girls?) is discovery of something or other that may in fact seem like the proverbial "straw that broke the camels back. Stalin had his defenders until some of his "crimes" came out, Hitler too, Pol Pot too. Pinochet and Castro will be no different. Part of the problem of the true believer, regardless of stripe, is that they hook into an ideology, and forget that they are supposed to think.

[steve]

I don't think Heaven has ANY of Pinochet's ilk. In fact, I'm sure he will receive a WARM reception where he's headed.

--of course, he will be joined by friends and dear supporters like messers scoop jackson or kissinger...reagan, etc.

[Jack M]

For the record, could you please provide a comparison between Castro and Pinochet on the grand moral barometer. Shouldn't be too tough based on your exquisitely fine moral compass.

How about Chavez. Or any other South American "strongman". Nasty place, huh?

I suspect your anger at Pinochet is based on his active anti-communism, not his actions.

[steve]

For the record, could you please provide a comparison between Castro and Pinochet on the grand moral barometer. Shouldn't be too tough based on your exquisitely fine moral compass.

--all you need to do is go to comparative studies of human rights violations to see your comparison is farcical actually. Did human rights violations occur in Cuba during the 70's? Sure. Were they even close to the type of violations that Pinochet committed in the 70's and 80's? Not if ya take seriously the review of organizations like Amnesty International, whom anti-Castroites are happy to rely on when 'proving' that Castro is the worst dictator ever, outside of Hitler and Sodom.
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How about Chavez. Or any other South American "strongman". Nasty place, huh?

--oh yes, those tens of thousands of union activists, student leaders, peasant leaders,...who have been slaughtered by Chavez...How could anyone doubt your desire to compare Chavez and Pinochet, or maybe even Hitler even?

[Randy Paul]

"For the record, could you please provide a comparison between Castro and Pinochet on the grand moral barometer. Shouldn't be too tough based on your exquisitely fine moral compass."

Does it matter? I think that if you'll read comments from Marc's blog and my own blog, that one thing we both have in common is contempt for both Castro and Pinochet.

"I suspect your anger at Pinochet is based on his active anti-communism, not his actions."

And not the 3,000+ disappeared or the thousands tortured? How about the car bomb that his secret police detonated to kill an opponent and a US citizen in Washington, DC.? (You can read about it here: http://www.post-gazette.com/columnists/19981024roddy5.asp)

I think our moral compasses are fine. Perhaps you need to fix your own.

[steve]

Does it matter? I think that if you'll read comments from Marc's blog and my own blog, that one thing we both have in common is contempt for both Castro and Pinochet.

--it does matter, if you're trying to make the case that Castro is somehow comparable to Pinochet. Look at the AI reports from the relevant eras, or even from today, not much of a comparison to be made I'm afraid. The comparison between Pinochet and Chavez is even more laughable.
On the other hand, the comparison between Pinochet and dear friends of the US like Montt, Duvalier, the creeps running Haiti now, etc...is quite relevant.

[Randy Paul]

Steve,

FYI, that comment was not directed to you, but since you chose to respond and since you bring up AI, I'll let you in on a few facts:

1.) I was a Area Coordinator and Trainer for AI from 1986 to 1996.

2.) During that same time, I led my local adoption group in our work on the Caribbean Regional Action Network, which did a great deal of work on Cuba including POC cases, torture, detention in inhumane conditions, etc.

3.) During that same time we also participated in several actions regarding Chile including a six month campaign in 1986.

My memory of that time (which is solid) really reflects little in substantial differences between Castro's Cuba and Pinochet's Chile.

You might also want to consider the fact that AI and Human Rights Watch have not been able to visit Cuba since 1989 because Castro has not granted anyone from these organizations a visa.

Consider this:
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2003/12/31/cuba7002.htm

"Human rights monitoring is not recognized as a legitimate activity, but rather stigmatized as a betrayal of Cuban sovereignty. No local human rights groups enjoy legal status. Instead, human rights defenders face systematic harassment, with the government placing heavy burdens on their ability to monitor human rights conditions. Nor are international human rights groups such as Human Rights Watch allowed to send fact-finding missions to Cuba. And Cuba remains one of the few countries in the world, and the only one in the Western Hemisphere, to deny the International Committee of the Red Cross access to its prisons."

So while I grant that the Pinochet-Chávez comparison is probably out of line (FYI - I didn't make it), the Pinochet-Castro comparison is supported by the facts.

Perhaps it's you who should look at the AI reports.

Did you even bother before you made that silly statement of yours? Here's a link from AI's 2004 Annual report:

http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/cub-summary-eng

"2003 saw a severe deterioration in the human rights situation in Cuba. In mid-March the Cuban authorities carried out an unprecedented crack-down on the dissident movement. Seventy-five long-term activists were arrested, unfairly tried and sentenced to up to 28 years’ imprisonment; they were prisoners of conscience. In April, three men convicted of involvement in a hijacking were executed by firing squad, ending a three-year de facto moratorium.
Criticism from the international community, including countries and individuals previously supportive of the Cuban government, intensified. The Cuban authorities sought to justify these measures as a necessary response to the threat to national security posed by the USA. The US embargo and related measures continued to have a negative effect on the enjoyment of the full range of human rights in Cuba."

get a clue.

[steve]

My memory of that time (which is solid) really reflects little in substantial differences between Castro's Cuba and Pinochet's Chile.

--your memory is not consistent with the facts I'm afraid.
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"2003 saw a severe deterioration in the human rights situation in Cuba. In mid-March the Cuban authorities carried out an unprecedented crack-down on the dissident movement. Seventy-five long-term activists were arrested, unfairly tried and sentenced to up to 28 years’ imprisonment; they were prisoners of conscience. In April, three men convicted of involvement in a hijacking were executed by firing squad, ending a three-year de facto moratorium.
Criticism from the international community, including countries and individuals previously supportive of the Cuban government, intensified. The Cuban authorities sought to justify these measures as a necessary response to the threat to national security posed by the USA. The US embargo and related measures continued to have a negative effect on the enjoyment of the full range of human rights in Cuba."

--interesting, in a heated environment of utterly irrational and unnecessary US hostile policies against the Cuban government (which AI and HRW have, to their credit, consistently opposed), you cite the arrests of 75 in Cuba as 'evidence' that somehow Castro of today is comparable to the Pinochet of the 70's or 80's even. 75 arrested versus some 10-30 thousand. and common sense tells us that those 75 could probably be assured of relatively earlier releases if the US changed its policies in a slightly more rational direction. No such luck for the Chileans of the 1970's or 80's.
Get a clue indeed. I await evidence that Chavez is akin to Pinochet, now that such fine 'evidence' of Castro=Pinochet has been presented.

[Randy Paul]

"your memory is not consistent with the facts I'm afraid."

[BIG YAWN]

Actually, you've never presented any facts, just opinion. Your style of making your argument reminds me of the Monty Python routine in which a man comes in and ask for an argument whereupon he only faces contradiction of what he says and no facts.

Regarding Chávez, I'll type this slowly so that you understand: I never made the argument that Chávez=Pinochet. I will recommend some books to you that bolster my argument:

Against All Hope by Armando Valladares

Self-Portrait of the Other by Herberto Padilla

The Jorge Edwards book that Marc links to on your right

Como Llego La Noche by Huber Matos

Twenty Years and Forty Days : Life in a Cuban Prison by Jorge Valls.

Valls, by the way did speaking engagements for AI on human rights abuses in Castro's Cuba.

Diary of a Survivor: Nineteen Years in a Cuban Women's Prison by Ana Rodriguez

You might also want to watch the film by the Cuban-Spanish cinematographer, Nestor Almendros called "Nobody Listened."

If after all that you still refuse to acknowledge the human rights abuses in Cuba, well, I won't be surprised. There are, after all, people who believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and that the Earth is flat.

[steve]

[BIG YAWN]

--after the yawn is over, go compare ai reports on castro with pinochet.
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If after all that you still refuse to acknowledge the human rights abuses in Cuba, well, I won't be surprised. There are, after all, people who believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and that the Earth is flat.

--no, there are those that think that stories published by individual dissidents are the equivalent of documented human rights reports that report far grosser human rights abuses in Pinochet's Chile. How odd too that you claim falsely that I denied that there were human rights abuses in Cuba. Surely there are, but the notion that they are similar in number or extremity to those that took place in Pinochet's Chile is the stuff of fantasy and paranoia that informs the endless, hypocritical, and pointless US hostility to the Cuban government.

[Randy Paul]

Steve,

Steve, I don't need to compare these reports. You haven't even cited one in any case. I worked extensively with AI including conducting new member orientations at the AIUSA headquarters in New York fro nearly ten years. I'm initmately acquainted with their reports. You evidently are not as you are unable to cite any facts to buttress your argument.

One thing I learned in the training as a atrainer for AI and the training as an Area Coordinator with AI is that they don't make comparisons between countries. All human rights abuses that fall within their mandate are unacceptable, so your role here in attempting to minimize, gloss over or as I prefer to call it defining deviancy down simply because you don't like US policy towards Cuba, would be rejected by the very organization you claim backs up your argument (again, devoid of citations and facts).

For the record, I oppose the embargo and travel ban against Cuba. You, however, certainly appear to be an apologist whose rank hypocrisy with one standard toward Castro and another toward Pinochet does nothing to help the cause of freedom.

[steve]

Steve, I don't need to compare these reports. You haven't even cited one in any case. I worked extensively with AI including conducting new member orientations at the AIUSA headquarters in New York fro nearly ten years. I'm initmately acquainted with their reports. You evidently are not as you are unable to cite any facts to buttress your argument.

--I've read reports from Cuba and Chile from the relevant periods. No comparison, though for some odd reason you seem to think there is one. I'm not sure how to help you with this belief based on faith apparently. Next we'll be hearing that Castro's human rights violations were as bad as Montt, D'Aubisson, etc.
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One thing I learned in the training as a atrainer for AI and the training as an Area Coordinator with AI is that they don't make comparisons between countries.

--Correct, but we can read reports and compare, it's entirely reasonable. To portray such a methodology as irrational doesn't cut it.
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For the record, I oppose the embargo and travel ban against Cuba. You, however, certainly appear to be an apologist whose rank hypocrisy with one standard toward Castro and another toward Pinochet does nothing to help the cause of freedom.

--great, those these days more republicans oppose it than democrats i'd bet, it's really not saying much that one opposes the now transparently irrational policy toward Cuba. However, how plainly stating the fact that there is little to back up the comparison between Pinochet and Castro when looking at actual existing human rights reports is hardly the equivalent of apologising for abuses that exist in Cuba. That is a leap you've made, not me.

[Michael J. Totten]

Jack M: "I suspect your anger at Pinochet is based on his active anti-communism, not his actions."

Dude. Pinochet killed some of Marc's personal friends.

[Marc Cooper]

steve.. i find your hair splitting between castro and pinochet to be asinine, frankly. the huge difference,, of course, is in the economic systems constructed by both men. obviously, the cuban model is inherently less inequal and more humane than pinochet's. on the political level, however, i see little difference. I might even argue that castro is worse in some ways and as michael totten points out, this comes from someone who has many friends and co-workers among pinochet's victims. I have also just been called to offer more legal testimony against pinochet before the chilean courts in the charlie horman case. that said, pinochet after 15 years was at least forced to cede to a democratic opening. castro has personally held power for almost a half century. doesnt that strike you as, um, just a bit totalitarian. i can also tell you from first hand experience that by 1985 there was a measurable open political space in chile, permitting the emergence of an opposition press and the reorganization of political parties, including some marxist parties (there was also a simultaneous crackdown on Communists). In Cuba, I dare say, there is ABSOLUTELY no open political or intellectual space. there is NO freedom of association, no freedom of assembly and NO freedom of thought. someone with a big a mouth as yours would have two choices only in cuba: join the secret police or go right to fucking jail as they say in the pacino movie.
As to Chavez, he is not a Pinochet. He's just a plain old thug. and dont start whining about his democratic credentials. remember his own coup attempt last decade? I find the leftist defense of him delusional. Folks like you really ought to get off our ass one day and go live in Cuba or Venezuela for a month or two... It would make a great reality show. Title: Fools In Paradise.

[steve]

i find your hair splitting between castro and pinochet to be asinine, frankly.

--i find exaggarations with no basis in fact to be assinine, whether it's from Cuban 'exile' leaders or former AI reps.
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frankly. the huge difference,, of course, is in the economic systems constructed by both men. obviously, the cuban model is inherently less inequal and more humane than pinochet's.

--yes, obvious, though you'd hardly know it from most of the discourse on Cuba in the US.
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on the political level, however, i see little difference.

--i'm less inclined to separate the political and economic levels perhaps.
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I might even argue that castro is worse in some ways and as michael totten points out, this comes from someone who has many friends and co-workers among pinochet's victims.

--And as I've acknowledged before I'm perfectly aware of that.
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that said, pinochet after 15 years was at least forced to cede to a democratic opening. castro has personally held power for almost a half century. doesnt that strike you as, um, just a bit totalitarian.

--very different contexts. there really is very little in US policy that moves the Cuban situation forward, which strikes me as the main impediment to any changes in Cuba. And the comparisons between Pinochet's human rights violations and Castro is plainly inaccurate, which is what I was addressing myself to. If I'm to accept that Castro's human rights record is as bad as Pinochet, then why not state that Mexico's is, or Haiti's, or the Dominican Republic? Only in the US can we find people so stuck in anticommunist paranoia that the the loopiest of claims can be made without objection and when objections to the claims are made loud screams of "how dare you!" rule the day.
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In Cuba, I dare say, there is ABSOLUTELY no open political or intellectual space. there is NO freedom of association, no freedom of assembly and NO freedom of thought. someone with a big a mouth as yours would have two choices only in cuba: join the secret police or go right to fucking jail as they say in the pacino movie.

--well yes, but admittedly Chile had a huge advantage over present day Cuba, it wasn't facing continual (if failing in some degrees) isolation from the world's most powerful country. and while it was reforming alas, the main problem of political opposition had been pretty significantly dealt with--thanks to great human rights heros like Messers Allende and Scoop Jackson, etc. Perhaps if the US had just left Cuba alone and reestablished relations in the 70's and 80's, Cuba might have experienced some of the political changes you see as desirable? Not guaranteed, but it might have something to do with something.
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As to Chavez, he is not a Pinochet.

--yes, and that was all I was saying was in response to the baseless claims that he is a Pinochet, or a Hitler, or whatever other monster of history is brought in to justify US attempts to isolate Venezuela.
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He's just a plain old thug. and dont start whining about his democratic credentials. remember his own coup attempt last decade? I find the leftist defense of him delusional.

--sure i remember. i also remember that the reason the US opposes Chavez has little to do with his desires to hold onto power, no different from the US obsession with eliminating the influence of Castro in Cuba.
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Folks like you really ought to get off our ass one day and go live in Cuba or Venezuela for a month or two... It would make a great reality show. Title: Fools In Paradise.

--have lived in China for a few years, spent time with workers resisting fraudulent privatizations in Henan province in '99 and 2000. Not that that necessarily fits in with your stereotyped views of people on the left who disagree with pointless and inaccurate equations Pinochet, Hitler, fill-in-the-blank, and Castro.

[Randy Paul]

I'm really sorry that I didn't recognize a troll earlier. Steve's style of argumentation has more in common with George Bush than anything else: keep saying something often enough without any factual basis to go on and it doesn't make it true; not for you nor for the president.

[randy Paul]

"--i find exaggarations with no basis in fact to be assinine, whether it's from Cuban 'exile' leaders or former AI reps."

Pot. Kettle. Black.

[steve]

I'm really sorry that I didn't recognize a troll earlier. Steve's style of argumentation has more in common with George Bush than anything else: keep saying something often enough without any factual basis to go on and it doesn't make it true; not for you nor for the president.

--I guess this was inevitable, once the claim that Castro is the equivalent of Pinochet is made, then refuted, it is only a matter of time that the accusation of troll is trotted out instead of any real evidence for the assertion. No, indeed, Randy, your assertion that Castro=Pinochet is the one that is most Bush like, indeed I would bet anything Bush would agree with your assertion completely. only he might go you one further and say that Castro is worse than Pinochet!

[steve]

Pot. Kettle. Black.

--really? where have i exaggarated in my responses to you? i think i've been pretty sobre and reasonable, just asking for some evidence that Castro=Pinochet=Hitler... [yes, i know you didn't claim he was hitler, but why not, once we believe Castro is Pinochet, why not go one further].

[marc cooper]

steve.. ur not a troll, ur a religiis zealot. ur religion is simply of a lay persuasion. you provse nothing by your arguments except that they are all abstract and and 100% bereft of empirical validation. someone living in cuba with no political freedoms, with his individualism and intellect daily humiliated does notg get up read this blog and say oh thank god im not living in pinochet's chile. this whole argument is giant waste of time. so back to the original point,.. no ur not a troll.. u just act like one.

[steve]

you provse nothing by your arguments except that they are all abstract and and 100% bereft of empirical validation. someone living in cuba with no political freedoms, with his individualism and intellect daily humiliated does notg get up read this blog and say oh thank god im not living in pinochet's chile.

--and yet it does prove something. why not just speak honestly about the extent of denial of political freedoms 1), 2) their actual causes, and 3) how they can be advanced. How does that get done by making loopy claims about Castro equalling Pinochet or Chavez equalling Pinochet, etc? Asking such questions is not trolling, it is merely doing what any serious thinking person should do.
As for empirical validation, heck marc you mean to say there is no empirical validation for saying that Castro is not comparable to Pinochet in human rights abuses? or to montt, hitler, etc? any dissident in Cuba who wants to remain credible with most Cubans would be careful about such claims, why shouldnt Americans do likewise?

[Marc Cooper]

steve... ur games are tiresome. instead of jerking everyone else around why don't YOU simply come out and state affirmatively your analysis of castro. Don't refer to anyone else's viws. let's hear your learned characterization of him. I can't wait.......