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Saturday, January 15, 2005


Green Baron

Stripping the monarchy of all political power does wodners for its survival, and the tourism revenue they bring to the UK helps too :)

> You mean Hamilton Fish III, who broke ranks with his Republican family in 1994 whne he suceeded his dad as a Demcorat (but lost to Sue Kelly)? That does sound like an interesting party to have attended.

too many steves

On the topic of royalty I am purely American in that I just don't get the fawning adoration and attention that is spent on the Royal Family.

DENNIS: What I object to is that you automatically treat me like an inferior!

ARTHUR: Well, I am King!

DENNIS: Oh, King, eh, very nice. And how d'you get that, eh? By exploiting the workers! By 'anging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society. If there's ever going to be any progress with the--

. . .

WOMAN: Well, how did you become King, then?

ARTHUR: The Lady of the Lake,...
[angels sing]
...her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water signifying by Divine Providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur.
[singing stops]
That is why I am your king!

DENNIS: Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

ARTHUR: Be quiet!

DENNIS: Well, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!

ARTHUR: Shut up!

DENNIS: I mean, if I went 'round saying I was an emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!

ARTHUR: Shut up, will you? Shut up!

too many steves

P.S. On the off chance you don't already know, that last bit is from Monty Python and The Holy Grail.


The horrors of the concentration camps in Germany and Poland during the war doubtlessly outstripped any horror you might have felt 20 years ago Marc. And your horror must have been something that would persuade you to get drunk over something you saw as opposed to the poor souls that actually lived through it.

In the 50's, before "The Wall" I was privileged to go with my dad to Berlin and we visited Sachsenhausen. I too was deeply affected (hence my strong aversion to fascists including the islamofascists). I re-visited Berlin and was there on 9/11. Though that day is burned in my memory, so too is the differences between Berlin 1956 as a 10 year old and Berlin of 2001 as 55 year old.

When I was in college, a fellow student perhaps a dozen years older than me (that would mean he was born in about '34) had a number tattooed on his wrist, he was a survivor of Dachau sent there at the age of 8 or 9 because his parents were anti-nazi. Neither parent survived. He would not talk about most of his experiences except to say "If you took all of the horror shows ever made and put them together, it wouldn't even come close to the horrors of the camps."

All this, and Prince Harry thinks it cute to wear a Nazi armband. Though he has apologized, Harry is still an ass.

too many steves

I say this with utmost respect to Marc and GMR: I don't have to go there to understand the horror - and neither should Harry. Oh, and his dad was alive when Britain was being bombed by those very same Nazis.

Not only is Prince Harry an ass and a dope, but so are all his contemporaries who embrace Nazi chic styles.



Although I've spent much of the last seven years helping to refute Holocaust denial on Usenet and now on the web in my spare time, I still think the reaction to this is more than a bit overblown. Was it stupid? Yes. Insensitive? Of course. Tasteless? Definitely. Insulting to the elderly generation of Britons who can still remember World War II firsthand? Absolutely.

But Harry's at that age where young men tend to do stupid things every now and then (sometimes so often it's amazing that young men survive to become old men). In fact, most kids that age are "asses" in some way. Also, to kids Harry's age, World War II is ancient history. He probably thinks if they can make comical musicals about Hitler, why can't he dress up for a costume party as a Nazi? Hopefully Harry will have learned his lesson from this and will gain some maturity.

Of course, given that he is a member of the royal family, he may not. Time will tell.

Randy Paul

I´ve been to Dachau twice when I lived in Germany. What I remember more than anything else was the silence as if would drive away all the suffering.

As for Harry, I agree with the inbreeding argument. At least he didn´t go to Bitburg, put flowers on SS graves and claim that they were also victims of the Nazi´s . . .


"But Harry's at that age where young men tend to do stupid things every now and then (sometimes so often it's amazing that young men survive to become old men)."

It doesn't matter if Harry changes or not, grows up or not, gets real or not, he will always live in a state of wealth that none of us can even begin to imagine. The British royal family and our Royal family are quite similar in that regard.

John Moore (Useful Fools)

Yeah, Steve, and so is George Soros who is anti-Bush and all the Hollywood liberal and leftist stars who continuously bloviate against Bushitler as if having a pretty face and being a commercial brand name makes them knowledgable about anything. And, of course, the term Bushitler as used by many on the left itself demeans the evil of and the suffering caused by the real Hitler.

Oh, and don't forget our Royal Family the Kennedy's.


I would agree entirely John, the Kennedys and the Bush's aren't that different in that regard, it's the beauty of royalty, they don't have to care about their behavior patterns, they just lecture to the rest of the world about the importance of 'hard work', 'discipline', 'morality',...whether Bush or Kennedy [although maybe the Kennedys are somewhat less hypocritical in the morals area...they don't want to punish people quite as harshly for sins they themselves commit...].

MJK (posthumously)

"[although maybe the Kennedys are somewhat less hypocritical in the morals area...they don't want to punish people quite as harshly for sins they themselves commit...]"

But they often fall far short of taking responsibility for them.


"But they often fall far short of taking responsibility for them."

Well, yeah, but why should they? The Bush's don't either, but they endorse punishing others very harshly for the same kinds of crimes...


Orac, Thanks for your well thought out response to poor princey Harry. Since your thoughtfulness has enable me to bring some levity to this situation (along with fellow members of my shul) ..I have decided to make a tsunami costume for my daughter! It will be really cute and funny..gosh, some people are just too sensitive.


I want John Moore to find one quote for us in which a Hollywood star uses the term "Bushitler" (thereby demeaning suffering under Hitler, etc. etc.) I've got a funny feeling Moore got this nugget from the data bank that resides at the bacl end of his underwear.



Excellent post, Marc. Thanks for the personal recollections, in particular.

By the way, about those conspiracy theories: Here’s a quick summary of what the BBC has to say: When Edward VIII abdicated to marry American Wallis Simpson, the romantic fiction fed the public was that he had to give up the throne because Simpson was divorced. However, FBI documents finally released through FOIA actions by the Guardian in late 2002 show that the whole divorce thang was likely a smoke screen. The British constitutional crisis that eventually forced Edward’s abdication had far more to do with the fact that the British Government, headed then by Stanley Baldwin, had known for some time that Wallis had strong pro-German sympathies….and the fear was that she might be yanking passive, lap dog Edward’s sympathies that same direction.

The FOIA material also shows that, in 1941, Roosevelt was concerned enough to ask the FBI to launch an investigation into the activities of the Duke and Duchess of Windsor, because it was believed that the couple were being used by the Nazis to obtain secrets that would jeopardize the Allies. The FBI was told, among other things, that during the German invasion of France the previous year, the Duchess may have passed information to the Nazis' foreign minister, Joachim von Ribbentrop, her former lover (with whom she was evidently still sleeping with in 1936, the year that Edward abdicated). There is no proof that the Duke ever engaged in such activity, and the accusations against Simpson are based on intelligence, yet there appears to be no smoking gun. However, the Duchess’ Nazi apologist behavior is fairly well documented.

So watch it, Harry, you wanking little twit! I'm genuinely sorry your mom died, but there's no excuse. None.

John Moore (Useful Fools)

Enterprising investigative journalists should try to find out how Harry got the idea that it was okay to wear that uniform. Was it a juvenile reaction to what he might view as political correctness or to the nuisance of being told to behave properly? Was it because anti-semitism is becoming accepted by the British elite and this was a way to make a statement? Was it because he is really so ill educated and dim-witted not to understand the symbolism? Is there some sort of little Nazi fetish in the style world - where all sorts of strange nonsense goes on? Is it because the kid actually has some sort of neo-Nazi ideas?

The reason I care is not because I give a whit about the personalities in the royalty, but to understand if this is a bellweather or just an anomally - an abysmally stupid and insulting action by a famous person.

Now, when do we get to see a gulag?

Finally, I found Schindler's List to be the best movie I have ever seen, and I think it should be required watching in our school curricula, because of what it teaches about the banality of evil, among other things.


"I think [Schindler's List] should be required watching in our school curricula, because of what it teaches about the banality of evil, among other things."



"Now, when do we get to see a gulag?"

I'm truly stunned and quite disappointed that John Moore has been on the case for hours now - we're well into the afternoon - without a reference to Che T-Shirts...


"Was it because anti-semitism is becoming accepted by the British elite and this was a way to make a statement?"

Wow, I thought they were the good guys after sending troops over to Iraq to protect us againt anti-semitism...


Steve - you don't get it. "Elite" is a term referring to members of the intellectual, political and journalistic realms who opposed the war in Iraq. The charge that "anti-semitism is becoming accepted" by these elites refers to any escalation in criticism of the Sharon government or the schemes of neoconservatives (who routinely use the Jewish-Americans among their ranks as human shields.)

You are truly behind the curve...

ah, now I understand the true nature of the conspiracy! about as believable as the John O'Neil turns Ghandi story..

John Moore (Useful Fools)

reg - I gotta answer that one. Go to Roger Simon's blog on the same subject, and you will find my reference to Che T-shirts and a picture of two Useless Fools wearing them.

What is this John O'Neil turns Ghandi reference? John O'Neil doesn't deny participating in combat (and has some medals for it). He is, in my personal experience and that of those I know and trust, a truly fine and kind human being, but Ghandi?

Are you guys never going to give up on John? Do you really think that dissenters should be sued for their dissent by billionaires? I thought you guys were for the little guy. I guess it just matters whose ox is being gored, doesn't it.

Marc Cooper

Steve, Reg and John.. plse stay on the topic and dont slide off into the usual mudfights.

GreenBaron: I'm referring to Ham Fish III, the son of the former NY Congressman and grandon of the cabinet secretary.

Marc Cooper

One more gratuitous thought... I kind of liked J. Hoberman's veiw of Schindler's List... i.e. that it was a BAD movie because it found a way to make you feel good within the context of the holocaust... that Schindler's gesture created a redemptive atmosphere when, in fact, one should view the holocaust as unblemished horror. Just a thought..

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